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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

506 replies

bruffian · 04/06/2017 07:37

How the hell can we stop this?

OP posts:
corythatwas · 04/06/2017 12:25

"Islamist leaders need to take some responsibility now for condemning these attacks"

And this after all the marching and all the condemning statements read aloud in public places by Muslim leaders after the Manchester attack!

This after it became public knowledge that the Muslim community had been first started reporting the Manchester bomber to the police 5 years ago and had since made repeated attempts to get him put away!

This after Muslim leaders have gone out in public and reminded their own communities of their absolute duty to report any suspicious activity to the police!

It's what I said in a thread last week: any Muslim who speaks out against terrorism is instantly enveloped in an invisibility cloak. It's magic!!!

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 04/06/2017 12:25

The answer is an end to rascism and the right to free choice. If you are raised to believe you are better than others then hate grows.

I think all UK education should be secular, parents can inflict their beliefs on their children in the home but in school all faiths and races should be treated with equal respect. Children must be free to choose their own beliefs without penalties.

My friend speaks of the immense cultural pressure on children to succeed in his community. The shame heaped on families when children move away from Islam to embrace Western culture. This is a dangerous combination as it makes the West a scape-goat for an individual's failure to succeed, a easy target to blame. The hatred builds, the individual's lack of success is apportioned to Islamaphobia and rascism (without recognising the rascism within the community they were raised). They view themselves as Muslim first, not British, as to be British is to be lesser, to be inferior.

The indoctrination of children to any faith has to end. Personal freedom and recognising the absurdity of rascism is the way forward.

Scrap ALL faith schools.

elgwyn · 04/06/2017 12:25

I think you're really arguing at cross purposes.

I absolutely agree that Islam can be used to radicalise already violent, criminal young men further and provide a spurious justification for their activities.

But it's silly to say it's Islam that's the problem. Islam isn't a fixed thing any more than Christianity is. Christianity has been used as a justification for the Crusades and the Inquisition and Breivik.

Yet I know many Christians who are the loveliest, kindest, most gentle and selfless people you could meet.

It's not the religion which is at fault. It's the abuse of religion.

elgwyn · 04/06/2017 12:26

@ CrossWordSalad.

noeffingidea · 04/06/2017 12:29

elgwyn why did I say 'other than the IRA'? Well, the IRA weren't a religious organisation, it was a territorial dispute. In any case, it seems to be resolved for now, so I just wanted you to provide evidence of mass viloence that is happening currently that isn't religiously motivated.
You just seem unable to admit that religion (obviously Islam in this case, though not always) can be in itself an impetus, and a reason to, commit violence. It's certainly not the only factor, but it apoears to be the main one in the UK at the moment. We are lucky enough to have a relatively low murder rate in the UK, other than these current attacks, and there don't appear to be large numbers of violent men commiting mass murders just because they are violent men.
Of course he may have turned to Islam just as an 'excuse' to be voilent, on the other hand he may have been deeply devout, or anything in between. Again, we don't know.
It would also be interesting in this context to know how many of the perpetrators are converts, how many are brought up in a very religious home, or in a home that practised a more moderate 'social' form of Islam, or who moved between sects, and so on.

CrossWordSalad · 04/06/2017 12:32

Well, why were so many terrorist attackers in the previous decade Catholic or Northern Irish?

Do you think there's something fundamentally violent and murderous about either Northern Irish people or Catholics??

And there we have it again. No, I don't and I didn't suggest that there is anything fundamentally violent or murderous about Islam, so I don't really understand why you ask.

Accusing me of saying things I haven't said is not very constructive.

I was talking about Islamism. I assume you know the difference between Islam and Islamism. If not, please find out as otherwise when people making statements about Islamism (i.e. ISIS, worldwide caliphate, jihad, that sort of thing) you will think they are talking about Islam (ordinary Muslims).

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/06/2017 12:33

I'm 1,000,000% with you.
All this "We won't let them win" , but. They are winning, and They'll continue to win. We're all terrified. Wonder who and where will be next.
There's absolutely no solution to it all.

CrossWordSalad · 04/06/2017 12:35

elgwyn X posted. I mostly agree with your post of 12.25, I think.

NCISgeek · 04/06/2017 12:35

We are not all terrified, I'm not, my DH is not, my children are not nor are my colleagues. Do not pretend you speak for everyone.

PantPlot · 04/06/2017 12:38

We're all terrified

No, YOU are.

Speak for yourself

StiginaGrump · 04/06/2017 12:39

I am so sorry for the victims of this latest horror. Up thread someone marntioned knowing someone who died at Bataclan and who now fundraises for inclusion events - I think they sound inspiring and are almost certainly right in the notion that the larger battle for community relations is won like this and that it helps isolate extremists even more than they are already pushed to the edges of their own communities.

There is nothing inherent in the Muslim faith that inspires violence presumably that is shown by our large peaceable Muslim population. It's incredibly crass to acknowledge your ignorance then to assert the problems with the faith.

You know the extremist version of the faith - where do you think it grew from when it wasn't historically prevalent all over the Middle East? Oh yeah that's right it grew from the groups funded by the USA and this terrorism has as part of its fuel Weatern funding, oil and western interventions. It has other layers of very ordinary combinations of poverty, wealth inequality and the susceptibility of young excluded males to radical dogmas.

Part of these terrorists winning is increasing hostility and more mistrust between communities and as someone who lives in a predominantly Muslim area and has plenty of Muslim friends I don't want to see this happen - many of the people I know are much more fearful because they get so much more abuse than they used to and these Muslims like most have the same absolute condemnation of these attackers.

StiginaGrump · 04/06/2017 12:40

Who and where will be next? The usual people and places - Muslims in Muslim countries.

augustusglupe · 04/06/2017 12:41

Totally agree with you OP All the candles and prayers and bloody 'coming together' isn't going to make this go away. They ARE winning and we need, we'll the government needs, to do something NOW

happypoobum · 04/06/2017 12:43

I'm not terrified.

I lived and worked in London throughout the IRA bombings when far more people were killed than have been in London by ISIS.

I can't remember there being a general "Get the Irish out/Get Catholics out" sentiment, although I imagine if you spoke to some Irish people who were in the midst of it they might have tales of individual/isolated bigotry.

The Muslim community and religious leaders have absolutely slammed all the attacks and made it clear they do not support the acts. Yet there are still plenty of racists about who refuse to accept the truth.

corythatwas · 04/06/2017 12:54

As for anyone suggesting that terrorism is intrinsically linked to Islam only, Breivik has already been mentioned. Also the Ku Klux Klan.

What about Buddhist terrorism in Asia? world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-fight-oppression-with-violence/
Hard to imagine anything gentler and more cuddly than Buddhism on paper, but that doesn't mean violent people can't use it for an excuse for murder.

What about Bissonnette's attack on the Quebec mosque? (6 people killed, 19 wounded).This was a man who described himself on Facebook as a Christian crusader, which rather suggests that his (distorted) religion was of some importance to his acting.

Or the Malegaon bombings (Hindu extremists).

I am not trying to claim that there is some kind of equality here or that Muslim terrorist acts are not (at the moment) more frequent. They are.

But it seems clear that no religion is inherently immune from being used to express human violent tendencies. At some other time, it may well be Christianity that comes to the fore as the main inspirer of violence on civilians (Spanish inquisition, anyone?). Or Buddhism. Or a political adherence that acts like a religion. We have seen it happen before with Nazism and with communism. Could easily happen again.

Flowerydems · 04/06/2017 12:56

I'm sorry op but you're wrong and just seem to be brainwashed by May and her we won't let them win stance.

There's always been terrorism, there always will be terrorism, it's not just a uk issue. The amount of people killed by extremists in this country is tiny compared to how many people they're killing in their own countries.

In my opinion it's just bringing out the worst in people, as a country a large majority are becoming more racist, can't see the difference between a Muslim and a Hindu and generally shuffling away from muslims with backpacks in the street, it's like the edl is becoming common place. At the end of the day the more inclusive we are the less extremists exist.

I feel for the victims and their families but at the end of the day these people are random bloody nutjobs, by posting this kind of thing we're adding fuel to the fire showing that they're provoking a reaction.

TheHoneyBadger · 04/06/2017 12:59

you can't be 'inclusive' of an ideology that is 'exclusive'.

CrossWordSalad · 04/06/2017 13:05

As for anyone suggesting that terrorism is intrinsically linked to Islam only, Breivik has already been mentioned. Also the Ku Klux Klan.

No-one has said it is.

DotForShort · 04/06/2017 13:07

I used the words 'something' and 'can be interpreted' . I am well aware that the majority don't do this. Does this really have to be stated in every single post in every discussion on this subject?

Well, it might be useful to do so, if you are going to state that it can't be a coincidence that violent acts are committed by Muslims because of something in their religion. The point is that any religion, not just Islam, can be (and many have been, most notably Christianity) used as a pretext for violence. To single out Islam and suggest that there is a specific connection between that religion and violence strikes me as quite an inaccurate statement.

Flowerydems · 04/06/2017 13:13

Why not? If they decide they don't want to be included fair enough but I'd never think to not try my best to include people just cause their religion excludes me

happypoobum · 04/06/2017 13:15

And TM has made a statement saying her answer to all this is for us to show LESS tolerance................I despair.

CrossWordSalad · 04/06/2017 13:15

Theresa May has put a statement on Facebook

Enough is enough. My response to last night’s brutal terror attack:

"Last night, our country fell victim to a brutal terrorist attack once again. As a result I have just chaired a meeting of the government’s emergency committee and I want to update you with the latest information about the attack.

Shortly before 10:10 yesterday evening, the Metropolitan Police received reports that a white van had struck pedestrians on London Bridge.

It continued to drive from London Bridge to Borough Market, where 3 terrorists left the van and attacked innocent and unarmed civilians with blades and knives.

All 3 were wearing what appeared to be explosive vests, but the police have established that this clothing was fake and worn only to spread panic and fear.

As so often in such serious situations, the police responded with great courage and great speed. Armed officers from the Metropolitan Police and the City of London Police arrived at Borough Market within moments, and shot and killed the 3 suspects.

The terrorists were confronted and shot by armed officers within 8 minutes of the police receiving the first emergency call.

Seven people have died as a result of the attack, in addition to the 3 suspects shot dead by the police. Forty-eight people are being treated in several hospitals across London. Many have life-threatening conditions.

On behalf of the people of London, and on behalf of the whole country, I want to thank and pay tribute to the professionalism and bravery of the police and the emergency services – and the courage of members of the public who defended themselves and others from the attackers.

And our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and with their friends, families and loved ones.

This is, as we all know, the third terrorist attack Britain has experienced in the last 3 months. In March, a similar attack took place, just around the corner on Westminster Bridge.

Two weeks ago, the Manchester Arena was attacked by a suicide bomber. And now London has been struck once more.

And at the same time, the security and intelligence agencies and police have disrupted 5 credible plots since the Westminster attack in March.

In terms of their planning and execution, the recent attacks are not connected. But we believe we are experiencing a new trend in the threat we face, as terrorism breeds terrorism, and perpetrators are inspired to attack not only on the basis of carefully-constructed plots after years of planning and training – and not even as lone attackers radicalised online – but by copying one another and often using the crudest of means of attack.

We cannot and must not pretend that things can continue as they are. Things need to change, and they need to change in 4 important ways.

First, while the recent attacks are not connected by common networks, they are connected in one important sense. They are bound together by the single, evil ideology of Islamist extremism that preaches hatred, sows division, and promotes sectarianism.

It is an ideology that claims our Western values of freedom, democracy and human rights are incompatible with the religion of Islam. It is an ideology that is a perversion of Islam and a perversion of the truth.

Defeating this ideology is one of the great challenges of our time. But it cannot be defeated through military intervention alone. It will not be defeated through the maintenance of a permanent, defensive counter-terrorism operation, however skilful its leaders and practitioners.

It will only be defeated when we turn people’s minds away from this violence – and make them understand that our values – pluralistic, British values – are superior to anything offered by the preachers and supporters of hate.

Second, we cannot allow this ideology the safe space it needs to breed. Yet that is precisely what the internet – and the big companies that provide internet-based services – provide.

We need to work with allied, democratic governments to reach international agreements that regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremism and terrorist planning. And we need to do everything we can at home to reduce the risks of extremism online.

Third, while we need to deprive the extremists of their safe spaces online, we must not forget about the safe spaces that continue to exist in the real world.

Yes, that means taking military action to destroy ISIS in Iraq and Syria. But it also means taking action here at home. While we have made significant progress in recent years, there is – to be frank – far too much tolerance of extremism in our country.

So we need to become far more robust in identifying it and stamping it out – across the public sector and across society.

That will require some difficult and often embarrassing conversations, but the whole of our country needs to come together to take on this extremism – and we need to live our lives not in a series of separated, segregated communities but as one truly United Kingdom.

Fourth, we have a robust counter-terrorism strategy that has proved successful over many years. But as the nature of the threat we face becomes more complex, more fragmented, more hidden, especially online, the strategy needs to keep up.

So in light of what we are learning about the changing threat, we need to review Britain’s counter-terrorism strategy to make sure the police and security services have all the powers they need.

And if we need to increase the length of custodial sentences for terrorism-related offences, even apparently less serious offences, that is what we will do.

Since the emergence of the threat from Islamist-inspired terrorism, our country has made significant progress in disrupting plots and protecting the public.

But it is time to say enough is enough. Everybody needs to go about their lives as they normally would. Our society should continue to function in accordance with our values. But when it comes to taking on extremism and terrorism, things need to change.

As a mark of respect the 2 political parties have suspended our national campaigns for today. But violence can never be allowed to disrupt the democratic process. So those campaigns will resume in full tomorrow. And the general election will go ahead as planned on Thursday.

As a country, our response must be as it has always been when we have been confronted by violence. We must come together, we must pull together, and united we will take on and defeat our enemies."

CrossWordSalad · 04/06/2017 13:18

And TM has made a statement saying her answer to all this is for us to show LESS tolerance................I despair.

Yes, less tolerance of "the single, evil ideology of Islamist extremism that preaches hatred, sows division, and promotes sectarianism."

Do you think we should be tolerating extremism?

happypoobum · 04/06/2017 13:21

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