To think that DW's behaving irrationally and unfairly?

[VogelVogel]

From time to time we have disagreement and she storms off. She says she doesn't like confrontation as her parents fought during her childhood so she uses these avoidance tactics and is hypersensitive to the smallest of criticisms.

We have been NC with my parents who live locally to us-I will admit they have not treated my wife well in the past. A big clash of cultures and understanding was to blame in many instances but unlike me DW finds it incredibly hard to forgive and forget and even the smallest thing would get blown out of all proportion. My parents have made no secret of the fact that they didn't accept DW and neither attended our wedding and she will not back down and claims to have been "conditioned" by all of us. fact.

My parents are very socially awkward, speak their minds and they are snobs but they are not bad people.

We've had nothing to do with my parents for the last 6 years now after DW intercepted an email written about her which wasn't very complimentary.

I was most upset to see that my father is suffering from ill health now and putting my mother under much stress. They both turned up at the house unannounced and we were not in during my son's birthday last month -all they wanted to do was to see my son. My wife found this out from by brother (who was indiscreet and joked with DW that our mother probably was after a carer for my dad) and my wife went mad. She went on a epic rant about calling the police if they were to dare turn up again -and she didn't speak to me for a week.

I feel now that my parents are frail and elderly they need a supportive family around them. They're not perfect but they're the only parents I have-they mean well and don't have the most sophisticated sense of humour but they're not malicious.

AIBU to tell her I'm going to take the DC and start up regular contact with them again?

I'm not sure I could cope with any more moods. In the past I've looked elsewhere for emotional support and can see that happening again if she doesn't change.

You can forgive your parents for horrible behaviour like wondering if you are the father of your child because you have grown up with them and think it's normal. It's really not. Sleeping around and not knowing your child's father is behaviour associated with Jeremy Kyle guests. Your parent basically called her promiscuous, devious, scum and not surprisingly is angry with that. Would your parents say that if your son's teacher had a baby? Or is this another passive aggressive way to abuse her?

Nobody in their right mind would have kept up a relationship with your parents when they have been so vile. Your wife has put up with their abuse for at least 9 years (wedding was 15 years ago, 6 years no contact) Your post makes her sound unreasonable for not taking more abuse but she can say that she's really tried.

Of course she was livid when they turned up announced wanting to see your son. She doesn't want the abuse to start again and her son being tainted by this vile behaviour. Have you thought about how contact will affect your son? How he will feel having contact with people who have been so abusive to his mum who is the most important woman in his life? Can you really tell your son that your parents desire to see their grandson outweighs your wife's need to keep the next generation away from abuse?

YOU made the decision not to follow cultural norms. You can't punish your wife for it. I suspect that your brother is right and they want your wife taking care of your dad and have your son in their lives. They are manipulative and abusive.

If I were you then I would consider seeing your parents but keep your son well away. If they beg you tell them that the ship has sailed when they abused your wife for so long and your help won't continue if they don't stop this.

Just seen the title of your post. 😱😡

She is neither irrational nor unreasonable.

You are both irrational and unreasonable to think that.
Your parents are both irrational and unreasonable to think that.

She's taken at least 9 years of abuse from your parents. She's a fucking saint.

You cannot honestly be this ignorant.

The title of this thread I regret. I apologise.

So go and see your parents then, Vogel

But you cannot expect your wife to go, nor to let you take the children.

Tbh if you were my husband I would be emotionally closed off as well.

Elphaba but what about my rights as a father? I can be overruled over who I chose to let them see? What if my father passed away and my children didn't have a chance to get to know him? I'm not sure I could live with that.

Vogel, how you can say your parents "are not bad people" when they have behaved so appallingly is beyond me. Threatening to take the children abroad, boycotting the wedding, questioning paternity, spreading lies about your wife?

Your responsibility is to your wife and your children. I can't believe you are still in contact with your parents, and unable to see how hurtful this must be for your wife. You should be supporting her, not undermining her by pandering to your vile mother and seeking "emotional support" elsewhere.

If they were my parents, I'd move to the other side of the world to get as far away from them as possible.

It's your children who have the rights. You do not have rights to put children in an abusive situation with your toxic family. And honestly, you are toxic too. So no, you do not have rights to expose your children to this. What you are suggesting is abusive in itself.

If your father passed away and your children didn't have the opportunity to get to know him, they would have dodged one bullet, at least.

"Elphaba but what about my rights as a father? I can be overruled over who I chose to let them see? "

Well, yes: as a married couple, you both agree who has access to your children and you both have a veto.

You support your wife so that means you accept her reasons for denying access. I have to say, I entirely agree with her decision.

I think you have to ask yourself two questions:

1. Do you believe and support your wife?

1. Do you want to continue to support her?

Forget your parents for the moment: they are muddying the issue - deliberately so, in my opinion. Your work is with your wife and family and whether or not you want to strengthen your marriage.

Your wife sounds extremely stressed and frightened - that's why she's blowing up as she is.
I think you both need counselling and I think you need to sit down with your wife and set the record straight because she needs to hear from you that you support her, that you're not going anywhere, that you absolutely will not let your children go anywhere or meet anyone without her knowledge and approval, and that you'll do all you can to make this work.

Your mother is batshit crazy. I bet you have spent most of your life saying 'Oh that's just the way she is', 'she doesn't mean it.'

I bet you everyone tiptoes around her kowtowing to her demands and moods 'just for a quiet life'.

She is controlling, manipulative (is your father really ill because false claims of illness/impending death are common with people like her), gaslighting, deceptive, malicious and just downright nasty.

Buy yourself this book..

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward

Highlights from OP's posts.

they have not treated my wife well in the past

they didn't accept DW and neither attended our wedding

In the past I've looked elsewhere for emotional support and can see that happening again if she doesn't change.

6 years now after DW intercepted an email written about her which wasn't very complimentary

our mother probably was after a carer for my dad

My mother offered to have our dd when she was born so that she could return to work as soon as possible

She was 3 weeks old when the childcare offer was given

My parents offered to pay the deposit on our home

They assumed the hiatus would be temporary like all the other times there were disagreements Well it's obvious your wife has had enough of these 'disagreements'. I would guess that the person 'disagreeing' is your mother denying how horrible she has been.

YEARS ago DW claimed my DM told her she would take the children abroad to raise them away from her Anyone that says this to a good mother should be cut out of the family life.

My DM is very hotheaded and has always admitted she does not like being in the wrong-she's also stubborn but she'd never hurt her grand children -she lives for them. No she doesn't, she lives to control, deceive, hurt and lie.

I have said sorry about three times and she has emotional outbursts and says she will not be shouted at and treated like shit but I don't do that- I have critiqued a few things like anyone does but she cannot cope with it. You have said sorry three times for what? You seeking 'support' elsewhere or for your mother's behaviour?

The may be outspoken, snobs and say stupid things but abusive? They don't mean half of what they say it's HOT AIR! Again nasty, deceiving, manipulative behaviour. If she says things that are not true then she is a liar plain and simple.

They make inappropriate remarks about everyone not just dw -they've questioned the dc paternity (they joke about this with other people and say stupid things) Horrible.

They've called her a gold digger but she put them straight when she told them she paid a significant amount of debt I had accrued off. So they relented. Generally it's been a clash of personalities/language problems Stop using this clash/difference excuse, you are bullshitting yourself.

I can see them alone she said that I'm an adult and can do as I please but she's said she doesn't want our children to be brainwashed and conditioned and it all hinges on the stuff DM stupidly wrote in her email. Exactly, do you want your children to be brainwashed and conditioned then?

If I see them alone they get really upset because they children aren't there and keep pushing for contact and they are relentless. They get so stressed. No they are not stressed. They are furious that someone has had the balls to stand up to them and they feel they are losing the battle which is just not acceptable to people like that.

The raising the children elsewhere came when they were older -when the DC were toddlers. It doesn't matter. It was a nasty and evil thing for your mother to say she would do. Considering all the other lies you know your mother has told why do you doubt your wife with this one?

they have tried many times to make amends but my wife will not budge. They have apologise and came to our home last month to specifically see her. That's why she flew off the handle. I don't blame her. More manipulative behaviour from your parents.

I completely backed my DW with regards to the e mails as none of it was true. DM was really depressed at the time which is no excuse . I told them that the content we'd seen it was deluded and lies and I'd not put up with it. That was 6 years ago. I supported my wife. So you know your mother is deluded and tells lies. Why would you want your children anywhere near her? Just to have a quiet life yourself? Bear in mind that if by some miracle your children do ever get to see them your mother will divide and conquer. One child, probabaly your DS, will be lauded as the best. Your DD will be considered too like her mother purely for being female and her life will be made hell. Will you call her a liar or mistaken when she tries to tell you that your mother is being abusive to her?

I have already said that I do not accept what she claimed in her emails to family (they were sent on the same day but the first detailed email had the worst claims in it)
She was not complimentary about DWs family.

She claimed my DW did nothing for the family and refused to work and that when the DC visited her they didn't want to leave her home and had to be forced from her arms.

It wasn't true and she was very apologetic and embarrassed about sending them. So she admits that she lied, manipulated, said awful awful things about your wife and all should be OK because she has said keywords sorry and embarassed. This is more lies, she is not sorry or embarassed but just trying to find a chink in the armour that will allow her in.

It was people online. You looking for 'support' Who was/is supporting your wife? You just staying is not support.

Yes she found out. And as a consequence I am not trusted and I am trying my best to earn back that trust.

2years ago. No time at all. It sounds like you have let her down all through your marriage so it is not just 2 years of hurt.

I told her when she was ready to arrange it I'd let her arrange the counselling in her time and directed by her (it was too soon she told me when we discussed it) Why should she arrange it? Do it your bloody self. Find someone expert in toxic family relations and be a man by starting.

I didn't go away with a friend even though he arranged the trip and covered the expenses (putting me in a very embarrassing situation) So what.

If I were a bad man I would divorce her and let the dc see my parents anyway. Because they will bring light and joy into their lives? You know that is not going to happen. Again I ask why why why would you want to subject your children to people that behave so despicably. You need to get your head read!

And then, you started a thread criticising your wife.

Vogel: "I can be overruled over who I chose to let them see?"

Yes. If your parents were abusive physically/sexually instead of "just" emotionally, and you wanted your children to see them, your wife would be well within her rights to stop you taking the children there.

Abusive behaviour is not a competition. Emotional abuse and toxic behavior are equally as damaging as being beaten.

Your DW is trying to protect your children which is exactly what YOU should be doing. By all means go yourself but your wife is being completely reasonable by not wanting your children to go.

Oh and your "rights as a father" hold no sway while you are putting your parents before your wife and children.

You dont have "rights" you have "responsibilities" to keep them safe.

If your mother jokes about their paternity in front of them, how do you think it would make them feel? And you want to expose them to this to make your life better.

Go and see your dad and help your mum if you want. The abuse cycle is only going to continue if you take the kids to see your parents. They are innocents who don't deserve to be dragged into your parents' insanity.

You should be thanking your wife for putting up with so much shit from them for so long. Be an adult and protect your kids from the abuse. Even if your parents wouldn't do anything to them, the kids will be negatively affected by your parents attitudes to your wife. That's assuming that they don't see your kowtowing to their demands as acceptance of the abuse that your wife suffered. When you married your wife, she should have become a higher priority than your parents. Her happiness should have been a higher priority than your parents'. Yet she suffered at least 9 years abuse from them. 😢 She's trapped as if you divorce you say that you'll take the kids straight to your parents. You need to remind yourself of the reasons why you chose your wife over cultural expectations 15 years ago.

OP, you are guilty of what is called on munsnet "guilty of posting while male". You got a hard time straight away and reading through the replies its obvious many of the respondents didn't bother reading initial OP or your later posts, however, you are still massively unreasonable as you are seeking to justify shocking behavior with nothing. dont let the obvious bias of this site excuse you. in this case you actually deserve it

What if my father passed away and my children didn't have a chance to get to know him? I'm not sure I could live with that.

It is not your doing that your parents don't know their grandchildren it is your parents' fault, therefore you have nothing to live with. Be thankful that your wife has protected your children from such toxicity and that hopefully they will grow as stable and loving people like their mother who has done all she can to protect them. Be grateful to your wife.

Your parents made their own bed now they must lie in it.

You can see them but they have brought it on themselves that the grandchildren can't.
If you maintain a relationship with them and they raise this you must stand firm in your wife's corner.

I would be glad that your children are not being exposed to your abusive parents.

Elphaba but what about my rights as a father? I can be overruled over who I chose to let them see? What if my father passed away and my children didn't have a chance to get to know him? I'm not sure I could live with that.

Maybe, for once, it shouldn't all be about you.

The inappropriate things are a family joke. My DM constantly makes references to one of her own children being swapped at the hospital because my sibling is very different to us. We accept she says stupid things. She doesn't actually believe my sibling isn't my hers/my fathers!

I haven't said anywhere that they are saints or my parents have behaved well towards DW.

So as I understand what you're saying you want to happen

• DM behaves appallingly, apologises says she didn't mean it. DW should accept that

• DM behaves appallingly, apologises says she didn't mean it. DW should accept that
• DM behaves appallingly, apologises says she didn't mean it. DW should accept that

Repeat the above ad infinitum. Please tell me OP at what point should you and DM accept that her behaviour is entirely abusive and has to stop. You have so much advice from people with a lot of relevant experience listen to them ... stop minimising

I haven't said anywhere that they are saints or my parents have behaved well towards DW.

So why do you want her to ignore this and spend time with them?

I read the first page but can't be bothered to read the rest.

YANBU to go and see your parents and you absolutely CAN insist that your children go to. They are your kids and you can take them to see your parents. If you divorced, she wouldn't be able to stop you from taking them there. I do think her reaction (to them coming for your sons birthday) was OTT and irrational tbh.

However, you can't make her go and see your parents.