Assisted dying

[LovelyBath77]

Please don't read if this upset you, but I think that it should be up to us when we choose to die, especially with an illness which isn;t going to get better. I don't want to have long term care and give all that money to it which could be left to my children, and definitely don't want to be in a position where you have no choice and considered incapable of making decisions.

I think there needs to be some change on this. AIBU?

aka JamPasty - name change fail

Damaged body I mean.

I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about adults dictating to others how they should live, or die, based on their own value judgements and then assuming, because some people change their minds about how they want to live or die, that that means choice should never be an option.

I agree Expat. There is an aspect of control in having some choice, especially in a case where there are no treatment options available and you are left with little choice but to carry on.

I'm no expert but while strong pain relief undoubtedly exists, what about nausea?

I've coped with various bits of horrible pain in my life but nausea brings me to the absolute depths. You can't sum illness up as 'pain', for which there's a magic pill.

'But they don't have the right to have another person end their life, to ease their own suffering, when that medical professional has to live with their actions forever.'

They are not. There are medical professionals would help willingly. Not all are opposed. No one would be forced, no more than they forced to perform pregnancy terminations.

I think it's worse for the docs who want to help but can't as at present...it might be easier on them..

but as long as the people in power are practicing Christians, there isn't a hope in hell of anything changing

Nothing like a wild generalisation without any base in fact, to add to a discussion.
I am a practising Christian and absolutely support the right of people to access assisted dying, as do many, many other Christians I know.

'I'm no expert but while strong pain relief undoubtedly exists, what about nausea? '

And sadly, there are conditions for which we cannot completely relieve pain, or other terrible effects.

JamPasty - I am so very sorry about your friend. She should have had better care so she didn't feel like that. It is wrong, both for her suffering it, and you forced to live with the memories of it. Palliative care should have parity across both hospices and hospitals. 💐

With respect though, unless you have a condition yourself, you will never wonder whether you are being unfair to family and society by continuing to live. And whether you should do the right thing and end it all. Unless you are in that position, you have no way of knowing how that feels. if, as said up thread, a law is passed to assist people in their last six months of life dye in the manner they want, then that is humane. Sad that it is necessary as palliative care should be great, but at least it would provide a choice.

Assisted suicide outside of this small criteria, such as that practiced in Belgium and Switzerland, I would hate to see introduced here. When people are dying because they are depressed, or have lost their legs in a car accident, it seems to be a massive slippery slope,of being able to die due to the presence of an untreatable "defect". And that seems very wrong.

Assisted suicide/ dying and euthanasia often get confused and are used interchangeably which muddies the waters and isn't helpful in the argument for the legalisation of assisted suicide/ dying. but they are two different things.
Assisted dying is about someone choosing to end their life and the person assisting them to do that not being prosecuted.
Euthanasia is about someone knowingly causing the death of another by for example lethal injection that another person administers.
In the case of assisted death/ suicide the person commits suicide by drinking a lethal dose.
As I said earlier in the thread - this would be a totally autonomous decision. It really isn't about disability or even dementia.

Those advocating for it (including myself and others who have experience of watching a loved one die in appalling circumstances) believe assisted suicide should be legal.
In other words, if a loved one has chosen to die that you would not be prosecuted for helping them to that death.
Dignitas don't get referrals from doctors - they are contacted by the individuals themselves or by relatives advocating for them.
They go through a rigorous process beforehand including psychiatry examinations and numerous doctors reports.
This is not about doctors administering lethal doses to people who have disability or cognitive impairment.
It's about people who are nearing the end of their life who have a very short time to live who are facing painful or terrifying deaths through choking or suffocation for example.

Some people don't want palliative care. They want to end their lives instead. And even the best palliative care can sometimes not make a person pain-free or suffering-free. Improvements in palliative care is a separate issue from the one of not having a choice to end your life with assistance if you so choose.

Yellow Anyone who says that you specifically should want to die needs to be told to sod off.

You don't need someone to specifically say that you should die, FGS. I realise we live in a frighteningly individualistic society but you must be able to understand culture and society have an impact?

I almost killed myself some years ago. I was struggling with almost no care/support. No-one needed to say "kill yourself", they just needed to cut of any other option. And then a friend of a friend was talking about how his girlfriend had killed herself a few months previously. He kept saying he respected her decision to die. He explained the NHS had given up hope on her, there was nothing anyone could do. This was for MH issues caused by abuse. Now this guy was obviously working through a lot so I don't have a problem with what he said, exactly, but hearing him repeat "I respect her decision to die" felt very personal, and like that's what I should do. I had the same diagnosis as her.

Our society will not and does not make sure all other options are explored.

If you think medical professionals aren't doing it, Gromit, then you are mistaken. Or naive. Would you rather a who medical professional sat there watching someone die?
Same as with abortions, some doctors do them, some prefer not to.

I respect your choice, but it seems you don't respect other people's.

This is why laws are made by Parliament and not by groups affected by the issues in question.

the problem of the unintended signals remains though. I don't see a solution to allowing assisted dying that doesn't have the subtext that we understand that some people's lives are so unvaluable to them or us they should be allowed to end them.

And that then causing the person involved to question whether they ought to value their own life less.

Abortion is not a perfect analogy because the entity acted on is not able to extract any signals from it.

It's clear that there are various debates to be had depending on what exactly the condition is and drawing on best practice from around the world, clearly not a one size fits all answer here.

Morris - there are some pretty good anti-emetics to prevent nausea now. Problem is, not all Drs prescribe them as a matter of course.

Expat - I agree, which is why we really need to learn from other countries in this regard, and not be scared of piling on the pain relief, which hospital Drs tend to be quite conservative with (sweeping generalisation). It's also where the last six months law would serve a purpose.

GrommitsEarsHurt - she had excellent care thanks, and she decided she did not wish to live with the condition she had. Who are you to deny her that choice? No one is forcing you to make the same choice.

And it was me up thread arguing for the law you just mentioned.

'Morris - there are some pretty good anti-emetics to prevent nausea now. Problem is, not all Drs prescribe them as a matter of course.'

There are, but you must realise that even the BEST of them, no matter when they are prescribed, or even in combination, work. I saw this with my daughter when she was undergoing cancer treatment.

We did not encounter hospital doctors being conservative with pain medication, quite the opposite, so making sweeping generalisations is not a strong argument to deny adults of sound mind the right to end their lives with assistance.

Hear hear BBC.

It is easy to get caught up in this debate when many people posting have watched loved ones die in pain. And that is a terrible thing to experience and witness.

But I think what I and BBC are saying, is that laws which have been proposed in the past, have adverse effects on many others living with disabilities and health conditions.

I get that when it is your loved one suffering, you are not going to give a shit about faceless others out there who may suffer as a result of a law change, but we do exist. And we are just as loved by our families.

If a law is passed which results in more people dying, as a side effect of trying to ease the suffering of those already dying, then that is wrong. Someone else's pain in death, whilst terrible, does not mean that other people dying inadvertently is a fair consequence.

the problem of the unintended signals remains though

this is very true, and I suspect not limited to this area. I'm not sure how we help address this though, other than addressing the stigma of mental health issue and the stigma of needing support and care.

I absolutely understand that having dying legally made an option does raise the spectre of that being expected for others with that condition, but I don't agree that that is a good enough reason to deny a choice to those wishing to die. We have to address both issues - give the choice of death to those who want it, AND reassure those who don't want to make that choice that that is ok.

I think some of the anti arguments remind me a lot of pro life arguments actually - the way it is often twisted so that one person's choice implies something about other people in similar situations. One woman who chooses to have an abortion because she is pregnant as a result of rape, for example, does not mean that she thinks every other woman should do the same or that any children born as a result of rape should not be alive. It simply means she made a choice for her.

To me this feels the same; one person's judgement on what their limits are and on the circumstances are where they would choose not to continue should not be construed as implying anything about any other individual.

to give a shit about faceless others

I do though, whether you believe me or not. But equally, can you not feel for those who are suffering hideously with no way out? Do we not, as a society, owe it to both groups to try to find a solution that works for everyone?

Chardonnay - or the law hasn't been made, in this case.

Right, I'm bowing out, because I'm too tired to type anymore.

NoLottery has said what I feel, far more eloquently than I ever could.

I also think that when people talk about the right to end their life with assistance, it is obvious that they don't have that right, or it would be legal, and when the law has been debated, the medical profession as a whole have refused.

So you may have the right to want to die, and that's each person's choice to make, but people have no right to be assisted in it.

i don't know about the abortion arguments - i can't quite see that, people with disabilities already feel like a marginalized burden which is a key way it's not the same and i don't think it would take much for them to be pushed in a certain direction and for it to become the 'expected' outcome.

Especially as we do not live in a well funded, lovely society where we cherish people in need of lots of care, and that's unlikely to eventuate any time soon.

if you've got x, you opt for assisted dying at precisely y point e.g.

The debate and the law probably needs to get a lot more specific than any sort of universal right, in my mind.

Yes i am in favour.
We would put a beloved pet out of it's misery, why is it not the same for us?

grommit, lovely to hear from you as usual