Assisted dying

[LovelyBath77]

Please don't read if this upset you, but I think that it should be up to us when we choose to die, especially with an illness which isn;t going to get better. I don't want to have long term care and give all that money to it which could be left to my children, and definitely don't want to be in a position where you have no choice and considered incapable of making decisions.

I think there needs to be some change on this. AIBU?

GrommitsEarsHurt - and what about those people who are dying right now - are they not allowed a choice because it might (if you felt pressured) affect you? How is it fair for you to deny them their choice when they are closer to their end than you are?

Chardonnay - are you a medical professional? I can assure you that they see it as having to kill people, regardless of how people on the street think they should view it.

Shamoo - nope, because he was given pain relief. The side effects killed him. He wasn't injected with benzodiazepines resulting in a very painful, distressing, but short death. If the pain relief didn't kill him, the Drs wouldn't have tried any other method of hastening his death. Thanks for your well wishes.

JamPasty - that seems to be the fairest way, so that people who aren't terminal can't submit to societal pressure to end their life. It's not easy when you hear people saying "oh, I'd rather be dead than have that and be a burden".

There are also people with illnesses who campaign for assisted suicide and for their right to die. See the case of Mr Conway currently going through the court system in the UK (and all of the cases before him, like Diane Pretty).

There is a really interesting podcast series on this from Australia by Andrew Denton. It is truly heart-breaking to hear the people who are terminally ill talking about why they are so desparate to be allowed assistance to kill themselves. I wasn't sure either way until I listened to it, I struggled with my concept of the sanctity of life. But listening to parts of the podcast is very distressing, and I came to the conclusion that it isn't for me (or the state) to dictate to somebody when they can die.

There are cases of patients who have progressive illnesses and are absolutely convinced that they won't want to go into a wheelchair, a care home, and so on.

Then they get ill and are really faced with death, and decide to stick it out.

I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about a lot of able-bodied people on a forum saying they would hate to go into a care home, be blind, be locked-in and so on when there are people who have those experiences and are still happy to live.

Yellow - absolutely, that's why there is no medical reason why people should be dying in pain. Many Drs are scared of prescribing assertive pain relief. Hospice Drs tend not to be., which is why people tend to have a more peaceful end there. This is a training issue. Surely it is better to train Drs in this, and resolve the training issue, rather than have people having to end their lives as they are scared of the pain?

Chardonnay the majority of doctors are against euthanasia because they view it as killing.

It's easy to play semantics when there's no pressure on you to kill another human being.

Islets - thank you, that is exactly the point I'm making. They don't care how Chardonnay views it, they care how they view it.

I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about a lot of able-bodied people on a forum saying they would hate to go into a care home, be blind, be locked-in and so on when there are people who have those experiences and are still happy to live.

There are many that aren't happy to live though and they should have the right to choose rather than commit suicide earlier than they want to or perhaps even have to starve themselves.

Grommit Exactly. I think it's ridiculously entitled of people to say that they have a right to die and the effect on doctors doesn't matter, as a PP said.

Wineandcoffee thanks for the link to Compassion in Dying, their advance directive stuff looks helpful.

With my combination of mental health and life threatening physical health condition, the doctors have done advance directives for mental health and also for surgical treatment pain relief and the like. This is because the two can be interlinked. It's been shared with the surgical team and the mental health team.

Maybe something like this could help others too. It seems they are not done very often though. I'm kind of at the stage of limited treatment options though, so perhaps why. It focuses on things like which meds help, and where you want to be treated. I wanted to stay home as much as possible but need to be in hospital if certain things are needed. Which reminds me would be good to check if certain things are available in a hospice if needed.

Doctors absolutely should be more willing to prescribe assertive pain relief, and to be honest, if people could rely on that happening it may well address the issue for some people. But also, I suspect a number of doctors may shy away from doing that because that may feel to them they are taking a far more active role in someone's death than if the patient actively administered their own medical overdose, as it proposed for Dignity in Dying.

Pain is also not the only issue. For example, people with MND may feel they would rather end their life when they choose to rather than live through the progression of the disease. I'm not saying they should, or that I would were I in that position (how could I know?), but I cannot see why they should not have that choice.

Flora's Voice is worth looking up as a view on this, although the pictures are horrific, so be aware before you look.

Islets - thank you for also saying how unsavoury this is. People can get involved in the discussion when they are in that situation. Which is why most prominent campaigners tend to be.

Saying that you would like to be euthanised in my situation, as many people do, is a huge hint to me that I should choose euthanasia should it become available. That you think that given the choice I should choose to die. I find it absolutely sickening. Literally, I feel sick. You think my existence is so awful that you wouldn't blame me for wanting to die. How dare people pass judgement on my condition and whether it is so bad it requires euthanasia, when you have no experience of it yourselves.

I really wish you would Stop using "kill" and "killing" because this is not what it is.
I'm not sure I want to engage further if you Insist on using it.

I know what I would want, your view clearly differs.

GrommitsEarsHurt - totally appreciate that I know nothing of your experiences, but that method is used to help people to die early in some cases.

isletsoffrangipane - Nobody is saying that anybody should pick the option. All that anybody is saying is that that option should exist. Some people do want to be allowed to die when they get to that position. See all of the cases that have gone to court to fight for the right, see the campaigners who campaign for it until the day they do die by starving themselves to death because they have no other option. If I am honest, as somebody who is fit and well at the moment, I can't imagine actually ever being brave enough to want to die: I don't argue that it should be allowed because I want the right, because I cannot comprehend what it must feel like to be in a position where you actually want to be dead.

Surely the point is that nobody should get to tell anybody else when they can die. Just as nobody should be able to tell anybody that they should die. Why would we want to force people to starve themselves to death instead of letting them have a dignified and as pain-free as possible death? The only possible reason is one of potential abuse (other than religious considerations that shouldn't play into law), but all of the actual imperical evidence shows that a system that is regulated with proper safeguards decreases the probability of abuse.

I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about a lot of able-bodied people on a forum saying they would hate to go into a care home, be blind, be locked-in and so on when there are people who have those experiences and are still happy to live.

Umm...I'm the OP and have history of severe MH and a life threatening bowel condition for which there is no cure, is agonisingly painful (bowel obstructions requiring emergency surgery) and large amounts of painkillers, affects what you can eat (need an NG tube to the stomach sometimes for example) and am at the stage of no more surgery / treatment options.

So please check your facts before making such assumptions, or telling people what they should think.

I totally agree with it, you would not treat a dog in such a way, if they are in pain and suffering, you let them go, no different for humans. If I have a terminal or chronic illness which renders me in pain and incapacitated, I should have the choice to end my life. We should all have that choice, of course one has the choice not to end their lives. I don't like people taking on my behalf.

yello - I'm sorry, but it's too upsetting to discuss your theory which is my reality. I know you don't mean any harm, but of course you can't see why people shouldn't have the choice of assisted suicide. Because you aren't living with one of those conditions, so you are unable to discuss it from a position of knowledge.

Surely people without these conditions, who can't see why the choice of assisted suicide is an issue, should really defer to those who actually have these conditions and say it is an issue? Or when making abortion law, should men think they can discuss it, and understand it, on equal terms with women?

Saying that you would like to be euthanised in my situation, as many people do, is a huge hint to me that I should choose euthanasia should it become available. That you think that given the choice I should choose to die. I find it absolutely sickening. Literally, I feel sick. You think my existence is so awful that you wouldn't blame me for wanting to die. How dare people pass judgement on my condition and whether it is so bad it requires euthanasia, when you have no experience of it yourselves.

Anyone who says that you specifically should want to die needs to be told to sod off. Some people in terminal situations want to end their life. Some do not. No one can or should tell you what you should want, although both should be acknowledged.

your theory which is my reality - and how the bloody hell do you know what is or isn't my reality?! I am speaking from personal experience.

'I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about a lot of able-bodied people on a forum saying they would hate to go into a care home, be blind, be locked-in and so on when there are people who have those experiences and are still happy to live.'

I think there's something fundamentally unsavoury about adults dictating to others how they should live, or die, based on their own value judgements and then assuming, because some people change their minds about how they want to live or die, that that means choice should never be an option. Do we do this to women who have an unwanted pregnancy? 'Well, dear, some people later decide they want to carry on with the pregnancy, some people regret having a termination, therefore, none of you is allowed the option of termination since you don't know your own minds anyway. You can't be trusted to make the right decision for yourself and your body. You just think you can, be we know, you're lying to yourself.'

Chardonnay- if calling it killing upsets you, imagine how upsetting it is for the medical professional that you are asking to do that to someone.

It is all very well saying people should have the right to die. You are 100% correct. They do. But they don't have the right to have another person end their life, to ease their own suffering, when that medical professional has to live with their actions forever. How utterly entitled and selfish.

No that's the opposite of what I'm saying, grommet. I know very little about terminal disease or degenerative illness and I dont claim to speak for people who have those conditions.

I want people who find their conditions to be unbearable to live with to have access to euthanasia, not people who have x condition.

Loads of people live meaningful lives whilst coping with terrible health problems. I hope I could do that, for as long as I possibly could. I have a son, why would I want my life to be shortened?

But if I found myself with unliveable pain, fear or discomfort it's nobody else's judgement but mine how much my life is worth.

There are doctors who will assist in dying, there are doctors who will not. Nobody is suggesting doctors would be forced to do it: it would have to be a decision for any indiviudal medical professional. Other countries' experience shows that there are doctors who support assisted suicide.

should really defer to those who actually have these conditions and say it is an issue?

and why the fuck do you think I am arguing so hard in favour of assisted dying, if not for the fact I am saying exactly what someone who had the condition wanted? I lost her, and it breaks my heart. This is not just a "theory" for me"

Yes I think it made me think about it differently after going through several emergency surgeries and actually experiencing how it is, to deal with a damaged boy which only works sometimes, needing things like an NG tube and having no control over symptoms, being unable to do things we normally take for granted like eat food, having a bile bag to empty the NG tube from vomiting bile, a catheter and morphine pump, the agonise decisions of whether the bowel is ischemic and needing operated on or whether it will have to manage going forward...things are very very difficult when you are along the road of such an illness...

In hospital, I have observed another patient, older than me and with poorer overall condition...dying of a bowel obstructions and they out him in and end room on the SAU, his family having to chat with the consultants outside, they had a TV and were kind but would prefer not to have that end as sepsis is not pleasant ( had peritonitis once and that was agony) and think even with the morphine it would be horrible. I wouldn't like family around observing that either.

However in looking at the website mentioned I can see that possibly some of this might be alleviated by being in a hospice perhaps.