Assisted dying

[LovelyBath77]

Please don't read if this upset you, but I think that it should be up to us when we choose to die, especially with an illness which isn;t going to get better. I don't want to have long term care and give all that money to it which could be left to my children, and definitely don't want to be in a position where you have no choice and considered incapable of making decisions.

I think there needs to be some change on this. AIBU?

If we currently have a right to die, ie commit suicide, then why when you try to do it your stopped by the police and locked up to prevent you from trying it again? Why is it so hard to get information on the easiest and least painful way to do it?

I'm guessing because of the mental health rules around sectioning because you are a danger to yourself. An able bodied person wanting to kill themselves is by definition so unwell they need urgent treatment surely.

I still think on the whole I'd be in favour of a policy limited to terminally ill cancer patients in the last stage, although the induced coma until death seems like something we could do now that would be uncontroversial. For the rest of it, you'd hope a commission would be setup to examine the best polices for each group of affected people.

I disagree with that because the people that suffer the most with current legislation in the UK and therefore need the change in law are the ones who may not die whose condition cannot be alleviated by palliative care. At least those with terminal cancer can be helped with adequate pain relief and their suffering will be for weeks/months rather than potentially years.

Pain relief for cancer patients is often not adequate. It is really difficult to get on top of and control that kind of pain. With the best will in the world, it's often reduction not eradication of pain. Why insist a person endures that?

often the actual person with dementia isn't aware and is actually quite happy or oblivious to what's going on

I haven't cared for anyone with dementia who didn't have very distressing moments regularly . There comes a point for every person with dementia where their illness is going to be distressing.

I am for assisted dying. I understand that there are risks involved but I see no reason why it can't work.

My husband has a MH illness and he will never be well. After 25 years of treatment and a cocktail of meds and therapy he will never be well. I think he should have the right to end his life when he has had enough in humane conditions. We should all have that right.

'although the induced coma until death seems like something we could do now that would be uncontroversial. '

Are you having a laugh? Do you know what that does to a person? And how much high-level nursing and physician care that person needs? They have to be in ICU, hospices cannot accommodate them (I do know of one case, however, where a patient was moved from ICU to hospice in order to die there, the vent was pulled upon getting the patient, who was dying, settled and family round). Have you even known a person in that state? It's unpleasant at the least. For me, it left me mentally scarred forever, I have fucking PTSD after watching my daughter like that (she died in ICU).

There's also the small issue that some people's lungs are so full of tumour they can't be ventilated. And yes, they are still alive, often unable to get anywhere near comfortable for not being able to breathe.

In all the reading I did there was one interesting slant on the UK debate which is that palliative care is much better in the UK than in other places. It isn't perfect of course but one of the reasons that it is suggested that some European countries do allow assisted dying is that they don't have the breadth of the hospice movement that we do.

A very small minority of people end their days in hospices.

Most places that dying people end up in are not competent, interested or have adequate staffing levels to provide decent palliative care.

I've seen it done well and I've seen it done very badly and I've seen it done badly far more often.

Today 14:25 NoLotteryWinYet

I'm guessing because of the mental health rules around sectioning because you are a danger to yourself. An able bodied person wanting to kill themselves is by definition so unwell they need urgent treatment surely.

Who are we to judge? Just because a person is able bodied doesn't mean that their prognosis or mental health is recoverable. A dementia patient is often 'able bodied' until quite far into their illness.

Lottery An able bodied person wanting to kill themselves is by definition so unwell they need urgent treatment surely.

No actually. I'm not sure of the details, but it's not quite so clear cut. Stuff to do with whether person is considered to have capacity or not...

Roomster I don't think it sends any such signal to those of sound mind who are not suffering from psychiatric illness. People would have to be assessed for this very thoroughly and if there was any doubt assisted dying would have be refused for those people.

You seem to see "psychiatric illness" as some random thing that strikes people, making them not think clearly. It's massively linked to, if not always directly caused by, social factors. There is not a clear line between "bonkers" and "making a rational decision based on circumstances". For example, my own mental health issues were caused by situations I couldn't escape, then compounded by a lack of care/support. I have nightmares and intrusive memories which swamp me at points ABOUT how I've been treated by people/services (I'm actually fairly "over" the original problem). I mean, it that "psychiatric illness" or is it simply feeling shite and being affected by being utterly unwanted and uncared for? Do you see what I mean? People absorb messages from society/those around them, then it can be called "mental illness" and seen as irrational...

Anway, I understand the points in favour of assisted dying - it's just that on balance I think more people will be harmed by allowing it than not.

Today 15:20 BBCNewsRave

Anyway, I understand the points in favour of assisted dying - it's just that on balance I think more people will be harmed by allowing it than not.

If this is what you believe then you have no idea how bad it is out there on the front line.

Pain relief for cancer patients is often not adequate. It is really difficult to get on top of and control that kind of pain. With the best will in the world, it's often reduction not eradication of pain. Why insist a person endures that?

I'm don't know if your post was directed at me but I'm certainly not saying that those with terminal cancer shouldn't be eligible for assisted dying. I'm saying that it shouldn't be limited to them because some people have an even worse quality of life and their suffering can continue for longer.

BBCNewsRave I don't see it as one condition at all. I'm am aware of the fact that there is not a clear line between "bonkers" and "making a rational decision based on circumstances." However, if there is any doubt over whether the decision is rational then assisted dying would have to be refused.

All the anti-choice campaigns are run by religion, mostly Christian. Same for the forced birth lot.

Sorry, but god belief has a lot to do with it, not doctors.

All the doctors I know would rather take a massive overdose rather than live like some of their elderly patients in long lingering painful deaths. Or at least DNRs.

The ingrained belief that god created humans and that only he can give life and take it away still permeates our psyche. Also, the belief that suffering is somehow virtuous and something to be endured rather than avoided.

Whether it's the god squad who dominate this side of the debate or not, the belief still remains that we're somehow magically more than mere biological functioning beings and that to seek death is a massive taboo.

The care not killing brigade live in cloud cuckoo land and can afford naice levels of care should they come to the end

The majority of people die in hospital. The same hospitals who are understaffed, underfunded, under resourced and struggling to cope with routine illness. The staff lack the knowledge and time to deliver proper palliative care.

People up and down the country can't access a GP for even routine problems. The GPs don't have time to organise or deliver proper palliative care.

A significant percentage of the nursing population are due to retire in the next ten years or so. There aren't going to be enough qualified nurses to organise and deliver proper palliative care.

I've had 25 years of seeing what goes on in care homes to know that they are unable to consistently deliver decent palliative care.

Who exactly is going to pay for and staff this wonderful care not killing dream?

It ain't gonna happen. Anywhere. Unless you have tens of thousands of pounds and live in the right place - that still has GPs and nurses.

expat I've seen 2 close family members in induced comas, but I didn't know that this could only be done in ICU, you're right that's clearly a problem with enabling that to happen.

itchy I was talking more about mentally ill people when I said able bodied people wanting to kill themselves were too unwell to make that decision.

I've got long term mentally ill family members, I know they're scared about their symptoms worsening with age, I'll see what they think about this.

The dementia case is far harder in reality because people (like me at the start of this thread) who have a strong upfront preference for euthanasia when demented can have no idea at what point we'd want that to be enforced when we actually have the condition. It's a nightmare from a consent perspective and for the people having to make the call to euthanise.

Not all humanists support assisted dying. There is a good article here www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/05/the-humanist-case-against-euthanasia

green, yes, that article makes sense to me - the old worn out computers can just do the decent thing. Plenty more of them around.

My father had many medical conditions for over 20 years from his early 60s, but still had a good quality of life. He was always against keeping people alive pointlessly. Then one day, he took me aside and told me that he'd had enough. He lived a further year and did nothing but sit in a chair. It took him over 12 hours to die in hospital. I drove through the night to get here and he didn't know who I was. The hospital said that they wouldn't revive home and I told them that that was not what he wanted anyway. He was obviously distressed and I said to the nurses that I wished they were allowed to give him an extra-large dosage of morphine. We all smiled at each other wryly. I held his hand while he died, kissed him and then my mother went hysterical.

When our elderly cat was on her way out, we took her to the vet and held her while she had her injection and she died peacefully in our arms.

How can this be right?

My FIL had to endure the Liverpool pathway when he died, starved to death and dehydrated with no pain relief, ignored by staff, on a public ward. Disgusting.

After watching my Gran die slowly and painfully while begging for it to end, yes I do agree with assisted death.

My cat had better treatment than my Gran. The pain relief was crap, the treatment from 60% of the medical professionals was even worse. My cat on the other hand took to the vet and the decision was made (heartbreakingly) within 10 mins. My Gran was left to suffer for over 2 weeks.

I am unsure on how this should go about. Legally speaking.

My dad has made provisions for himself he doesn't want a slow death he wants to be able to make the decision while I hate the idea of him ever following this plan I respect the choice he has made.

I want to be able to chose for myself as well, when I get too sick, I want to go. I do not want my children to see my suffering.

I was talking more about mentally ill people when I said able bodied people wanting to kill themselves were too unwell to make that decision.

I completely disagree. I am sure there will come a point with my husband where he has just had enough of struggling daily with his MH. He has had enough now really but not to the point where he wants to end his life. He hates the idea of living to an old age. He has a MH condition but he isn't psychotic. I can certainly see a day coming where he wants to end his life humanely because he just can't do it anymore.

Many people with MH conditions get sick of struggling, they get sick of the depression they know is coming, if it ever goes away. Many people with MH illness will never get better despite years of treatment and therapy and many of those people have the capacity to say they want to end their life without being too unwell to make that decision.

Like people with physical disabilities some people with MH illness will never improve to the extent they can lead a good quality of life.

Like people with physical disabilities some people with MH illness will never improve to the extent they can lead a good quality of life.

I don't know if you can ever say that with MH illness though. There is always the potential of new treatments and/or some remission. With the degenerative disabling condition that is never going to happen in the time someone has left to live.