Assisted dying

[LovelyBath77]

Please don't read if this upset you, but I think that it should be up to us when we choose to die, especially with an illness which isn;t going to get better. I don't want to have long term care and give all that money to it which could be left to my children, and definitely don't want to be in a position where you have no choice and considered incapable of making decisions.

I think there needs to be some change on this. AIBU?

Unfortunately you can have long term painful conditions that pain relief does not help or docs refuse to give you strong enough pain relief.

The debate and the law probably needs to get a lot more specific than any sort of universal right, in my mind.

I agree - the proposed law is anyone with a terminal diagnosis with 6 months left to live

Jam - i agree it would be lovely to have a situation where both could be catered for. Unfortunately that isn't reality.

The blunt answer is no. I do not think that a law which facilitates someone's desire to die, should be implemented if it has the consequences of other people feeling pressured to die.

Giving some people the choice to die will result in other people feeling that they have no choice but to die.

And for all those saying "we'll tell people they don't have to die", who exactly will do this? Because our society makes it quite clear what it thinks of the disabled and ill.

I am glad someone distinguished between euthanasia and assisted suicide. However, a few posts later that old "you would put a dog down, humans deserve it too" post came up again. Some people really do seem to think they have a right to be euthanised.

I also think that when people talk about the right to end their life with assistance, it is obvious that they don't have that right, or it would be legal

You could argue that there was a time women didn't have the right to abortion, didn't have the right to vote, when homosexuals were not given the right to their sexuality. Quite correctly - due to people fighting for the law to be changed people now have those rights because the law changed.

It is the same with assisted dying - in certain extreme cases people should have the right to to an assisted death. The law needs to (and one day will) change.

No one is being pressured to die. No one. We just want the right to do so, at our instigation.

In countries where assisted suicide is legal, no one is pressured to die. Its not capital punishment.

My DF has a progressive, degenerative illness. He's now in his 80s and his condition meant he has paralysed from the waist down for most of his life. Now he has lost the use of his arms and neck and is loosing the ability to cough or swallow. He's in pain 24/7, he doesn't want palliative care, he wants to die with dignity and he wants that NOW. In his words life is being inflicted upon him, his dignity has been torn away. He's frightend, tired and in pain. His GP is brilliant and just as distressed as we are.
The last year has been difficult, the last 48 hours heartbreaking. He just wants to end his suffering. Who has the right to deny him that? Not me.

NoLottery - 💐And you lovely. Thank you for understanding so completely. And being able to articulate things so much better than I can.

Kali - yeah, I live in pain every day my GP is crap, the pain clinic are wonderful and dose me up. It's about training. And I'm sorry for anyone this hasn't happened for, but you can take away the pain in terminal illness. It's just whether the Drs are willing to take the risk of hastening
death.

DJ - hahahahahaha!

Penfold - I'm so sorry about your dad. Can you talk to the local hospice and seek their advice? There are things that your dad could perhaps have to calm him a little bit. I'm not going into specifics as I wasn't a hospice nurse, but they are fabulous in situations such as yours. Even if you haven't been referred, I bet they could chat through it and give advice. 💐💐

If I was in pain, in sound mind and wanted to die, please explain why I have fewer rights than a dog which doesn't have 'sound mind'?

penfold your poor dad

specialsubject Dogs are tested on by medical companies for the sake of furthering medical care for humans. Other species of animals are used for their meat, or involved in cosmetics testing.

Animals are treated as different to humans. They are not euthanised because they're not of sound mind, they're euthanised because humans think of themselves as being superior and therefore best placed to make decisions about their lives. We decide it's better to end their suffering, so that's what happens.

It has nothing to do with an animal's right to die. The animal doesn't come into it. It's made for them.

your theory which is my reality - and how the bloody hell do you know what is or isn't my reality?! I am speaking from personal experience.

I totally agree. There are a lot of assumptions by some posters on this thread. It doesn't seem to occur to them that those with a different view may also have relevant experience.

You have your personal experience and I respect that.

But why do you insist on everybody else to have that very same experience when they want a choice?

He's now in his 80s and his condition meant he has paralysed from the waist down for most of his life. Now he has lost the use of his arms and neck and is loosing the ability to cough or swallow. He's in pain 24/7, he doesn't want palliative care, he wants to die with dignity and he wants that NOW. In his words life is being inflicted upon him, his dignity has been torn away. He's frightend, tired and in pain

I'm so sorry Penfold - this is so sad and the awful reality for some people.

Your father is exactly the type of person that legalising assisted death would be intending to help. Palliative care and hospices cannot help in circumstances like this. Makes me so cross that some one like your father cannot be allowed to die with dignity. I'd urge you to contact 'dignity in dying' (if you're in the UK) - they will offer support.

The right to die can very easily become a duty to die. We must tread carefully with this legislation.

Exactly baldrick. In fact I'm re-reading lovely's op and wondering if she isn't already feeling pressure (from herself, her sense of morality and duty, not family) due to the policy of reducing assets to £100k to pay for care? I'm wondering if that sense of duty and not being a burden is already worrying disabled people due to the care policy.

Well yes the OP was possibly due to the new care policy.

I'm on PIP enhanced rate and ESA SG due to the conditions and their life threatening nature but it is a concern. I'm lucky to be here while the DC are growing up but who know that will happen in future.

I joke to my surgeon but we both know further ops won't help and he has my care plan. Of course I'd rather not keep having bowel obstructions and the stress for my family as well..would rather not have care etc.

I think to be honest it is a fear, of it happening again as well.

The ethical debates around assisted dying are complex No they aren't really, that's just the excuse people who are against it use.

The issue is, should people be forced to stay alive against their will. Pro-choice versus pro-life, where have we heard that before? And as most of western Europe have concluded someones right to chose is morally superior to the state enforcement of pain and suffering.

There seems to be 2 main groups of people against it, those who feel they will be forced to kill themselves and those who fear others will be forced to kill themselves. If group 1 is able to campaign against a change in the law then they are able to refuse to give into pressure. And all group 2 has to do is put in measures to protect against anyone being pressured. Yes this is possible because other places in the world have successfully done it.

Slippery slope argument? This is nonsense, when has this ever happened? Parliament passes laws, it does not operate a slippery slope. As evidenced by our abortion laws. Pro lifers operate the argument that no one should be allowed abortion because some women will be pressured into having one. Only we dont accept that argument, we find a balance.

So its about finding a balance that avoids the pressure from unscrupulous family members whilst allowing people to exercise as much autonomy over their body as possible. Enabling them to control their own suffering in the way they choose.

Its no use wringing your hands and wishing the world was different, people are suffering now in the real world, today, and they should have the choice to end their own lives if they so choose. Its the right thing to do and if they need a friend to hold their hand as they do it, then for gods sake have some humanity and let a friend hold their hand.

The right to die can very easily become a duty to die. We must tread carefully with this legislation.

But everyone already does have the right to die. There is nothing to stop an able bodied person including those with mental health illness from committing suicide. Many people with severe degenerative disabling conditions just want to have the same right to choose when to die.

This is clearly an emotive subject, and always will be.

As PP mentioned some posts back assisted dying is already practised in some end of life situations by withholding nourishment and fluids. This happened to a very elderly relative of mine recently. When I saw her a week before she passed she was clearly dying and clearly in some distress. Medical intervention to speed up the process could have saved much of her distress.

My mum has made a "Living Will", which is accepted in the BMA's ethical recommendations and by common law. In it she has identified situations which she would find "much worse than death" in which case she would request all life sustaining treatments to be withdrawn. This is her choice.

i have known people who have been begged by loved ones to assist them, to speed up the process. They have done so at great risk to themselves because they felt it was the right thing to do.

I certainly think assistance should be given with clear end of life situations if the expressed a wish for it. And am pro choice in other situations but I do think more debate is needed on the different scenarios.

I don't give a stuff about dogs! I just want human rights to choose not to suffer.

The right to die can very easily become a duty to die
Where is the evidence of this around the world?

There's evidence on this thread - lovely was partly motivated by worry over including housing in asset calculations, and BBC and grommit. It would be hard to prove in evidence clearly as people who felt it was their duty to die are exactly the types of people who will adamantly say it was their choice.

Sorry, I meant look at the posts of grommit and BBC news - not that they're motivated by the change to asset calculations to include housing.