AIBU to say only psychopaths support fox hunting

[lubeybooby]

the kind who would laugh at and enjoy watching kittens being set on fire (animal cruelty especially early in lifeis a marker for psychopathic tendencies)

Because it's just the same as that. Animal cruelty plain and simple.

Imagine a group of thugs chasing a terrified animal to give it a horrible death

Now imagine they are posh people on horseback

VILE

Theresa May makes me angrier every day. Disgusting excuse of a person.

I don't give a shit if you live in the country or anywhere in fact and foxes are a nuisance to you - kill them humanely if you must!

It's also banned now so pretty irrelevant. Leave us alone!

The government currently want to overturn the ban. It could not be more relevant.

Edmund you make a good point. I understand not everybody is in the financial position to choose free range or perhaps to spend the time/money to educate themselves on healthy yet cheap vegetarian diets. However, people that aren't on the breadline should do more - they shouldn't be eating factory farmed food. They should spend more on good quality meat and cut back on something else. I think that's highly important.

An overhaul of the system is needed - factory farming needs to be made illegal because it is horrendous (and people should be focussing on it!) and we should therefore have schemes to help those in financial need to access higher welfare food.

Anyway, back to the thread - we're going to have to agree to disagree on whether fox hunting is really that cruel!

Buck you are talking jibberish. So if killing the fox does not improve a nice ride out your horse, then why was fox hunting ever a thing to begin with? You said yourself that most of your hunting pals are just normal people who think it's a nice day out, so why were they hunting specifically and not just riding? Typically of the pro hunt lot (on this thread at least) now you've run out of sensible arguments suddenly it's no longer relevant to discuss it. Despite the fact that the ban is a hot topic at the moment given TM's stance and the GE coming up

The issue is mixing enjoyment with killing. Two things that should always be separate IMO.

This thread is typical with its hyperbole and anthropomorphism.
A lot of French people love hunting but the cliche is that the French are a civilised nation.

Actually, as someone neither British nor French, my observation is that the British tend to view themselves as superior to the French when it comes to how they treat animals.

If 'the ride' is what it's all about, why bring hounds to scent out foxes etc? Just go out for a ride on a horse... No need for stalking animals, whether they are killed or not. I know plenty of horse-riders who go for lovely hacks in the woods who don't feel the need to bring hounds with them, running the risk of accidently killing a fox etc.

Mariposa that's a very straightforward question but you will not get an answer from the hunters. As soon as you pick apart all their bullshit answers and get down to the truth of the matter, which is basically your question, they disappear like a puff of smoke or come back with more evasive nonsense.

I admit one not rtft as it would be bad for my blood pressure.

But seeing as hunting in this fashion has been banned for a number of years now, does anyone know if there has been a significant increase in unwanted fox behaviour such as raiding chicken coops?

Because I live in the countryside and I haven't heard that there has been, and if not then what is the hunt supporters REAL justification for wanting a repeal of the ban? At least have the balls to say " I enjoy the chase and I don't care about the foxes suffering!"

Mariposa you've clearly never hunted! Lovely hacks in the wood are fantastic but there is no comparison to the physical and mental challenge riding in a hunt. Cross country doesn't even come close. There is no course, you shut your eyes and trust your horse at times. You find yourself swimming in a drain or jumping things you never thought possible. The speed of racing with 150 horses across a field when the horse is completely and totally loving it is unreal. All this happens when there is not even the sniff of a fox yet. Usually the dogs and red coats are off in the distance somewhere trying (often unsuccessfully) to get a scent but the rest of the hunt is working their asses off drawing on all their technical skills to ride. There is no comparative riding experience at all.

There are drag hunts where a fake scent is laid but foxes do get caught up in drag hunts too. You can't do much to stop the dogs when they've found one.

YABU, you cannot write off swathes of people as "psychopaths". I am for the not killing the fox bit, but labelling people you haven't met like this is always unreasonable - it is prejudice and never stands up to scrutiny.

There are plenty of people who aren't "psychopaths" who have grown up with this tradition - a longstanding cultural tradition in some boring relatively low-income parts of the UK where there is such a thing as British culture beyond eating macdonalds and watching sky TV, and it is enjoyed (contrary to popular belief) by people from different walks of life, industry exists around it and (shock horror) even animal lovers get to breed, raise and work with lovely dogs because of it. Some even put up with the tradition despite it being a massive nuisance because they respect and support such traditions and see them as important. In reality many of those people aren't married to the grisly end part and drag hunting would stay alive just as well for them, although it should be said this is in areas where fox control is a tradition for a reason, and where culling with poison or guns would kill many more foxes, whereas hunting has more effects than the direct grisly end of the prey. A hunt scares away fox naughtiness for a while, the hunt goes somewhere else and does the same there, eventually the foxes return and the hunt comes back to this area and so on. Usually there are naughty outliers, foxes who dgaf, but generally they will bugger off for a bit, which is arguably better than a guaranteed death by being shot or a guaranteed (and still very painful whatever anyone tells you) death from poison, which are both much more efficient destroyers of fox populations, and what authorities have to do for fox control in the absence of hunting. These are not rationalizations for fox hunting, but frankly you sound like you might not know this.

We'd be better off without any animals suffering unduly, and drag hunting should probably be what happens imo, and that's the argument that needs to be pressed home because we are a clever species and can probably quite easily put a very sensible, rational point that we can keep tradition and not tear anything apart if we aren't absolutist about it - however people are too quick to set themselves up as the spanish inquisition and discard wholesale things that are important to other people, it shows a lack of empathy. Progress can be achieved without assuming the other side of the argument are "psychopaths".

People would soon complain if fox hunting enthusiasts and blacked up morris dancers started coming into urban areas of the UK and morally policing their lives, a little understanding that traditions can exist for reasons other than "pure unadulterated evil" wouldn't hurt.

Actually, as someone neither British nor French, my observation is that the British tend to view themselves as superior to the French when it comes to how they treat animals. I'll give you that one.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/feb/14/labour.hunting

This is an interesting article from 2005 but the salient point is this one:
more than 700 hours of parliamentary time were devoted to the hunting ban, as against seven hours spent on the decision to invade Iraq

Any mention of hunting is such a useful distraction from the Brexit shit-show and Theresa May knows it. More fool you if you can't see it.

To more clearly answer the specific question, without the dogs to follow, and the pace of the dogs (they move differently to the horses so keeping up with them is what make the hunt what it is) there is not drive in the pack of horses.

Any mention of hunting is such a useful distraction from the Brexit shit-show

I agree with you there.

Any mention of hunting is such a useful distraction from the Brexit shit-show

^ This

where there is such a thing as British culture beyond eating macdonalds and watching sky TV

Always useful when posters clearly signal irony and hypocrisy. Well played!

Any mention of hunting is such a useful distraction from the Brexit shit-show and Theresa May knows it. More fool you if you can't see it.

Exactly.

I am against fox hunting on principle having been a country dweller for most of my life. It is a throwback and not supported by many of the farmers who are often unable to stop the hunt (trespassers by another name) from rampaging over their fields and disturbing their animals.

BUT I find the 'foxes are cute and loveable' idea (usually accompanied by pictures of fox cubs) very difficult to accept - they will kill cats, lambs and even small dogs as well as chickens. They can also spread disease.
I am not sure that shooting is feasible either as many are likely to be injured and suffer far worse than being chased. Foxes today have no natural predator and are not in need of protection.
I know feelings run high on this subject but calling those who follow the hunt 'psychopaths' is really going too far.

Jax

No, I'very never hunted. Why would I want to?

You just said 'all this happens when there is not even a sniff of a fox yet', so why bring in the scent of a fox? What purpose do the hounds serve in relation to making the horses love faster?

Ah, I see. The horses try to keep up with the dogs. That explains it.

I still don't see why foxes should suffer for your 'thrill-seeking'.

I explained that! The hounds move differently. The horses have to try and keep up with them.

"But seeing as hunting in this fashion has been banned for a number of years now, does anyone know if there has been a significant increase in unwanted fox behaviour such as raiding chicken coops?

Because I live in the countryside and I haven't heard that there has been."

Hunts are really not a very efficient means of actually killing foxes, it barely kills any of them. If people are using alternative means of pest control even a bit more you can expect there to be fewer foxes in country areas, not more, and those that survive/thrive will be the ones in areas where there is more food and less effective pest control. You might conceivably see more rats, mice, pigeons etc. but probably not more foxes.

Where I live we quite rarely get a fox going for the chickens now. :(

I'm not supporting hunting Mariposa, you asked for an explanation from a hunter so I gave it. The last time I hunted was when I was 12 and I'm an environment where it was completely normal.

All this happens when there is not even the sniff of a fox yet. Usually the dogs and red coats are off in the distance somewhere

So why do you need the fox or the dogs?

without the dogs to follow, and the pace of the dogs (they move differently to the horses so keeping up with them is what make the hunt what it is) there is not drive in the pack of horses.

But I thought the dogs were off in the distance somewhere?

If the fox is just sacrificed to facilitate an exciting ride on your horse, why the grotesque celebration of the first kill for newly intitiated hunters? Lots of schoolmates showed us horrific photos of the fox's blood smeared across their foreheads on their first "successful" hunt. And why the need for people to lie about population control and other bollocks. Why not just be honest?

Still stinks to me. I don't believe for a second that watching the animal suffer and die doesn't provide a great source of entertainment for hunters.

Hunters know by taking the hounds out that they run the risk of killing a fox - they just don't care as long as they are having fun. That's really what it boils down to, right?