Why do schools have "chosen" children? 🙄

[SameKidsAgain]

My dc is on a school residential atm and the teachers are constantly posting updates of them on fb but only pics of the same kids who are chosen for EVERY school photo opportunity. I don't get it. I'd really like to see some other children (including mine!) enjoying themselves too...but it's always the same ones over and over again, every year and every term for every topic. It's so bloody annoying and unfair, like those handful of elite children represent the whole school year 😡. Well they don't.

Kingscote, you might miss a few but that isn't the same as it always being the same 4 or 5 kids every time. There is a big difference.

A point about school plays - it seems to be assumed that children who don't like talking in the classroom won't be able to do so on the stage, but the two skills are very different.

We hold auditions for our Y2 end of year performance (infant school so leavers) as we know that children can be very different in class and on stage. Finding a play with 90 parts can be interesting!

We do expect the children to audition in front of the other Y2 teachers and Has, and the other Y2 children though, as experience has shown us that if they can't do it then they will struggle on stage in front of all the parents. We do give them preparation time though - only decent length line, a week or two to learn it. And they have more than one attempt at auditioning if they need it.

We ensure that every child who does want to speak gets at least one line. Some will have more, but we big up all the parts regardless of if it is a 'lead' character or a supporting role or narrator. If children don't want to speak we ensure there is a nn speaking role such as dancer, musician or just a general being on stage at some point role.

We also audition for some small (1 verse) solo singing parts - we ensure they go to children who don't have a big lead acting role. So this year we have 4 small solo sining parts and the rest of the year sing together too.

We are also aware some children learn musical instruments both in and out of school and we try to accommodate these in some way during the performance.

Oh, and I will photograph the performance and will try my hardest to get a photograph of every child in some way, at least once - infact I normally do a whole load of individual shots on the dress rehearsal day.

hulababy we also do auditions in front of the year group. If they learn a piece off by heart and have put some thought into it (over half term) then they deserve a speaking part. If they don't want to speak/ sing in front of 4 teachers and 59 children, then they're going to struggle to perform a part or a solo in front of an audience of a couple of hundreds.

What annoys me is when parents complain that their children have not got a main part, when those same children couldn't be bothered to prepare an audition piece.

Nemo
grannytomine
OddMollie

Thank you for acknowledging good stuff goes on. That's all I ask.

I appreciate there's some rubbish examples out there. I really do.

All I ask on threads like this is that when people come on and say 'this is how we've done things to improve matters' that there's some acknowledgement that good stuff does go on. Rather than "well you might think it's good but teachers are idiots so the kids must be brats".

It's so disheartening seeing the number of threads where people just want to talk down the profession by suggesting were all crap. If you read the more confrontational and aggressive comments on these types of threads you get an idea of how a minority of parents can end up taking staff time away from doing actual teaching and learning stuff. It's also no wonder there's a shortage of teachers when people can earn better money for fewer hours and less stress without having people 'assure you that they will have a say' in what you do

Thank you Maisy. It is also nice to hear about positive things.

Kingscote have you thought about doing something for each class? When I was in primary school there were 96 in my year, two classes of 48. We did two plays/musical performances at the end of year 6 (Junior 4 back in the day) I suppose it was done like that to give all children more of a chance to shine. We did it on one night, one play followed by a break for refreshments (money making opportunity and the nuns never missed those.) Then the second play. It worked well, I remember the two plays being very different which I suppose reflected the personalities of the two teachers. When I was in the play we had a student teacher who had been living in Germany and we did a play in German with German songs. I remember it so well.

Thinking about it the fact that I remember it so well, the costumes with brightly coloured dirndl skirts with black elastic belts and white blouses and the boys in short shorts with braces that we made in needlework with embroidery on them, we embroidered flowers on the blouses as well, shows that it is so important for children. For me that was 52 years ago. The boys did a dance routine, amazing in a rough inner city school in the early 60s where dancing was not something the boys did. It was a German slapping dance.

How awful it would have been if I hadn't been part of that.

Memories are priceless.

What annoys me is when parents complain that their children have not got a main part, when those same children couldn't be bothered to prepare an audition piece.

Yes!

Kingscote have you thought about doing something for each class?

I considered this briefly but it was looking to be far more difficult and time consuming, and we actually like the fact that the leaver's performance brings the whole year group together as one. We do have 2 or 3 of the lead characters though (so this year there are about 8 or 9 doubled up characters) and they swap half way through the show (whilst not the lead they sit at one side and form part of the choir/background characters)

Okay this has turned into a thread about how wonderful some schools are - yes some schools get this right, but others don't. And as Primary teachers each school is a pretty enclosed world. Neither parents or teachers really know what it is like in other schools, or even often in other classrooms in the same school.

If on school trips the same 5 or 6 children appear in all photos, that stinks of favouritism (unless accompanied by an acknowledgement that someone's camera broke or something). In school plays if the same child is always the lead (or as at my Infants School the Caretaker's daughter is always Mary) that is a problem - even if you have a surprisingly talented child maybe the play can be tweaked so that although they have the Solo their part is fairly minor.
I never complained about my Children's parts in plays (well except when DS was given a part when he'd been asking for months to do the lighting). And actually I didn't complain enough about such blatant discrimination as: everyone but DD's birthday being celebrated on the rolling display at reception.

But Secondary school has been much better.

mummytime
No. It's not about how wonderful some schools are. It's taken a million conversations for some people to even acknowledge that there might possibly be decent stuff going on in schools because despite saying "I get that favorites happen but this is what we do to try and solve what you're complaining about" some people just wanted to talk about how other kids are brats and we are just idiots.

Much more balanced to accept there's some bad examples and some good examples, which is closer to how the end of the thread turned out.

Is that SEN inclusive thing true?

This sounds like DD2. There's slight SEN involved and she looks angelic (she's not in MN terms she is "spirited")

Im not chummy with anyone, I'm not on the pta and I don't volunteer.

I hope it's not, I really like her teachers. I guessed her looks played a part but not her slight problems.

MaisiePops parents who have seen their children affected by favouritism in a significant way are more likely to post on threads like this one than those whose children haven’t really had a problem with it, so it's almost inevitable that a certain bias will creep in. I would certainly not like any teachers reading posts here to feel demoralised. I have reasons to be grateful to many of DS’s teachers and I remember their contributions with gratitude.

Kingscote it sounds like your heart is really with the first play option for your Y6 pupils but this thread has given you pause for thought! Maybe, given the comments I made earlier, I should be plumping for the second option in which everyone is doing more or less the same thing. But actually I think the important aspect is equal opportunities not necessarily identical experiences. So if you think you can make the first option work, maybe you should go for it. Do you have quite a number of children who’d actually prefer to be dancing or playing an instrument than taking on a speaking role? What’s the social structure like in the group? Is it noticeably hierarchical and is there any danger of those with larger parts lording it over the others?

Just to add though, if you do have a dance troupe, don’t have the less-coordinated children hiding at the back for the duration. As a veteran primary school production watcher, I’ve seen that happen on a number of occasions and always thought it was a shame. Unless the children are really petrified, it’s better to have a choreography that allows all the children to spend some time dancing at the front.

The important thing is that everyone should come out of the experience buzzing, knowing they’ve made a significant contribution.

As for which play I'd prefer to watch - if I'm watching a school play, I'm sitting in the audience with my Mum hat firmly on my head not my theatre critic hat so what I care about most is simply being able to see/hear my own child.

I considered this briefly but it was looking to be far more difficult and time consuming, and we actually like the fact that the leaver's performance brings the whole year group together as one. We do have 2 or 3 of the lead characters though (so this year there are about 8 or 9 doubled up characters) and they swap half way through the show (whilst not the lead they sit at one side and form part of the choir/background characters

I don't know how it works in your school but for alot of schools it doesn't bring the whole year group together, it cements a divide that the children have been aware of for years.

I 'm not sure it would be more time consuming, each class can fit rehearsals in round their work which has to be easier than co-ordinating 2 or 3 classes, it is easier to work with 30 kids than 90 and if that isn't true maybe we need to have bigger classes?

I can only comment from my own experience and we loved our own performance and the element of competition between the two classes added made us really committed to making our play the best. It was all done on one night, all the parents were there from both classes so it did bring the year group together but was a special thing for each class to do as one of their final things as class 4A or whatever.

Interestingly, a mother of a girl in dd's class said she hated "everyone gets to participate" performances, as it highlighted for her the difference between her child and some of the outgoing, confident, able ones. She said she was happy with her dd's progress and dd was happy at school, yet seeing her haltingly read something out whilst another child could recite it off by heart made her see in stark relief the difference between her dc and others. She said she'd rather her dd was doing dancing or whatever, and leave the speaking parts to those more suited to them.

mousymary, I don't think kids all need a speaking part, I think their talents need to be recognised and dancing is a brilliant way to showcase some kids, music is another. My daughter was good at music, grade 5s and 6s in several instruments and theory when at primary school and she never once in her years at primary school did she get to do anything musical. She also did dancing and only got a decent dancing role when she, quite out of character, insisted to the teacher doing the choreography that she could do it. As she was quiet and shy the teacher was reluctant to let her but eventually she gave her a chance and my daughter ended up with the lead dancing role. There were also 2 or 3 kids who just didn't want to be in the leavers production and they were given tech roles, sound and lighting, and were given credits in the programme and came on to take a bow.

I think some teachers just need to take a step back and challenge themselves and the kids.

Sorry I think I mix up schools, my kids attended 2 primaries and 2 secondaries so stories from all 4.

"It cements a divide that the children have been aware of for years."
Yes. This is so true. This is exactly what the role I mentioned earlier, which half the class were given and the other half excluded from, did. It also gave the chosen ones opportunities to lord it over the others, in ways I won't describe here because they're too specific.

MaisyPops, I think that's a bit of an extreme interpretation. No one but you has used the word idiot here. I did think the response to you saying you reward hard-working children was unfair, but the phenomenon of teachers favouring children who bully others is real so, as a pp said, that's some people's reality. Teachers might, or might not, realise how the children they are favouring are treating others. If they don't, this doesn't mean the teachers are idiots. Children like this can be good actors, and very careful about not being nasty in front of adults.

In the case of my children's school, I believe most teachers did know what they were like. I believe the way they were treated was down to a combination of teachers with outgoing, competitive personalities admiring these children's personalities (we all like people who are similar to ourselves, don't we) and therefore overlooking their nastiness, and the belief that they needed their self-esteem raising/an outlet for their need for control (when really they needed to be taught some empathy). What annoys me about the second reason is that (a) it's all about their perceived needs, not those of the other children, who aren't doing anything wrong, and (b) it doesn't work.

I also think it's not always realised how difficult it is for quieter children to volunteer/tell the teacher they want to do things. As well as having had their confidence eroded over the years, so they probably doubt their own abilities, if there's a bullying culture in the class, publicly volunteering runs the risk of being taunted ("Oh my God, X thinks she can act!") and of having their nose rubbed in it when their request is ignored. After several experiences of not being listened to, and chosen, it can be safer to pretend you don't want things.

It's good to hear that some schools hold proper auditions for roles, though, rather than the teacher just choosing.

I'm interested, on the back of this thread, as to how my DDs teacher will allocate roles for my DDs y6 production. They have to audition but a few of the more confident girls are already being very vocal about who will get the main parts (I.e them).

School have been good in the past about sharing stuff like this around, they (successfully) gave the main role at Christmas to a child who burst into tears and ran out of his audition.

It strikes me how tricky it must be. As the teacher do you simply allocate main parts to the children who do the best audition? What about if you have one child with a poorly prepared audition against another whose is perfect but you know one will have received zero parental support whereas the other will have been coached to death? Do you refuse parts if some children have been fairly entitled about it all and belittling everyone else? Do you try and encourage those who haven't put themselves forwards and how far do you go with that? Do you try and favour those who've had a more difficult time (SEN, problems at home etc) ? Do you favour those who have worked really hard and behaved well all year? Do you look at who has already main parts over their school career, and if so does Mary in reception count as much/more/the same as singing solo at last years Christmas concert?

I think it's an utter minefield and no doubt there will be parental mutterings whatever happens

I agree it must be a fine line to balance for teachers.

At DD1 (year 6) school it always seems to be split evenly.

It was lovely seeing a young lad who'd had problems in the first couple of years (well known not in a gossipy way iyswim) doing such a brilliant main role in assembly and seeing how far he had come from his early years at the school.

Obviously it is difficult but it is such a significant time for the children. I didn't have a starring part when I was in year 6, no one did, but here I am 52 years later and I remember it so well, I can picture the dance, remember the main song and the costumes are so clear and not a photo was taken. I hope in 52 years time they can all look back fondly and not feel bitter or sad because once again the same handful of kids had the limelight and they didn't feel it was anything to do with them. I think that is what we need to think of, not if parents think it's good or teachers like it. It is one occasion when I really think it should be all about the children, all of them.

Mousymary...sorry, I know I'm a bit late responding to your post, but I need to say that most schools have an enrichment group, often known as gifted and talented groups. Schools need to ensure those gifted and talented children also get to expand their mind, improve and reach their potential, just as they need to ensure every child reaches their potential at every end of the scale. Ofsted actually recommended our school do this. My dd often went on trips like this, well deserved I thought as she never messed about in school, was polite and worked hard. She was however in rubbish parts in the school play, only had a line to read out once.

Gifted and talented at my kids school wasn't all about trips out, although they did visit the local grammar school for a couple of projects. They did interesting things like produce a school newspaper, did a fund raising project.

It's easy to support and defend these groups if your child is involved, for everyone else it isn't quite so much fun is it

But schools have to have these groups, they have to show they are supporting children at both ends of the scale, those who are struggling and those who have more potential. Yes, my daughter is in these groups, but up to this point it's always been those children at the struggling end of the scale who get all the attention. I recall going to a party once and a mum telling me she didn't bother reading with her child because she wasn't ready and she didn't want to. Guess who got all the teachers attention in school...this particular child, because she wasn't getting the support at home. And my child, who did get the support at home had to sit with her and help her to read. How fair was that.

Mumzpopz - Yes, but, as grannytomine says, academic enrichment should consist of academic activities, not kayaking and drawing, which many children would enjoy and benefit from.

My DC's school sends some children to the local secondary school for some extension lessons (English, maths or science - whichever the child has high ability in) in year 6. I think this is fine, and don't resent my child not being included, as these children need it (and as you said, children with high ability often get little teacher attention).

It's frustrating that teachers have to make up for parents not supporting their child at home (I used to listen to readers, and it was always children whose parents hadn't written in their reading logs for months/at all) but they do have to, as it's not the child's fault they're not being supported. Very annoying though, when your own child isn't being given the support they need (which might be something other than reading, which is less easy to provide at home).

My DD was in the gifted and talented group and loved it, she would have hated kayaking and drawing as she wasn't sporty or arty. What she needed was extra academic stuff to extend her learning. For her the kayaking in particular would have felt like a punishment.