Why do schools have "chosen" children? 🙄

[SameKidsAgain]

My dc is on a school residential atm and the teachers are constantly posting updates of them on fb but only pics of the same kids who are chosen for EVERY school photo opportunity. I don't get it. I'd really like to see some other children (including mine!) enjoying themselves too...but it's always the same ones over and over again, every year and every term for every topic. It's so bloody annoying and unfair, like those handful of elite children represent the whole school year 😡. Well they don't.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, because I have mixed feelings about the main subject, but nemo, your point about the leadership skills of introverts is spot on. Also this:

"I think children get very mixed messages at school, being told to be inclusive, and that everyone is different and valued and you should be yourself/be kind/think of others, but living in a system where these traits aren't actually valued in practice, and the adults in charge aren't always inclusive."

is a truly excellent point. At best, words-not-deeds leads, throughout society, to (patronising) performative displays of inclusion, rather than true inclusion. Because people want to be seen as being inclusive, learn a rigid idea of what that looks like, and steamroll that through every objection, including objections coming from members of the very groups (whether BAME, women, disabled people or any other) they're claiming to be inclusive of. I don't think we can let the education system off the hook in that regard.

If you haven't read this article already, you might like it (warning: it's a bit social-politics-y, though there's a lot of discussion/disagreement in the comments so thats good food for thought).

And this is the follow-up post (took me a few minutes to find it).

OddMollie
I don't think they all are digs at how my school do things.

However, I explained how my school try to make sure that the very children people here are saying are overlooked aren't forgotten. This is the VERY thing that people here are complaining about (and I've said so many time i dont doubt it goes on!).
So when I say "there's hope because this is what we are doing" and I get told basically that I'm just an idiot like all teachers because any child we recognise as being lovely is clearly a brat who just charms the teacher.

In a nutshell, some people have raised valid points, others are just intent on recycling the same old 'mean teachers' thing. Why say "i want things to change" but then argue the toss and say anything we do is doomed to be shite.

WesternMeadowlark, those articles are really interesting. Thanks. I hadn't actually thought of it in such strong terms before, as discrimination, but if the choosing were being done on the grounds of something more concrete, like gender or race, heads would roll. She makes some very good points.

mousymary, that 'enrichment group' sounds truly awful. It sounds like the HT was using it to promote the school ("Look what confident children we produce!"). That's a new perspective I've gained from this thread, that the choosing is in the interest of marketing the school. Perhaps I've been really naïve.

OddMollie, it's great to hear your dd has done so well. Good for her. I agree it's exhausting, as a parent. I feel I have to put far more effort into maintaining my DC's motivation, and raising their self-esteem, than some parents do, just because they don't fit the system. Your dd nearly not applying for the internship is exactly the sort of thing I worry about.

I've known some great individual teachers, who take MaisyPops' approach, but in my experience they're a minority. There needs to be more teachers in a school who do this, to change the school's culture. I'll keep chipping away, being 'that parent', and in the meantime, thank goodness for scouts.

Just catching up on this thread.

Nemo, I wish some of your insightful posts could be made available in teacher training manuals. The pitfalls of favouritism in the classroom is such a vitally important topic.

This is an emotive subject for me as my own DS managed to ‘dodge’ all the ‘proto-leadership’ positions at primary school for the entire time he was there. He was the only one in the class to accomplish this feat. (It was a small class so impossible not to notice.)

Maybe it seems petty to care, but it is in the early school years that children develop a sense of their abilities and what they might be capable of in the longer term. If children feel that they are being judged less able to take on positions of responsibility and leadership in the classroom, however modest and trivial those positions might actually be, they can end up internalising those low expectations.

I’d also like to draw attention to the fact that favouritism and bullying are a particularly potent mix. In my DS’s final year at primary school, he had a teacher who was a rather hearty and robust sort. As well as heckling the HT from the back row in assemblies, she relished the rapport and banter she had with the louder, more confident children – the very children who called the shots in the playground and decided who was in and who was out. The quieter children got short shrift from her.

As a consequence of this social dynamic, the simmering bullying problem that had been evident for years in the class intensified. There was more power-posturing and swaggering from the top dogs than ever before.

The teacher, however, was oblivious to her complicity in the situation.

I know that not all teachers have favourites. But the potential for favouritism to develop is always there and I would like there to be greater awareness of the profound effects it can have.

I came across this article a while back and, whilst I don’t agree with everything in it, I do think that some important points are made and I would love teachers to read it and really reflect on its message.

www.smartclassroommanagement.com/2011/10/29/teacher-favoritism-is-bad-for-classroom-management/

I think children get very mixed messages at school, being told to be inclusive, and that everyone is different and valued and you should be yourself/be kind/think of others, but living in a system where these traits aren't actually valued in practice, and the adults in charge aren't always inclusive.

Yes! The amount of times my dc has been forced into a friendship with someone they obviously don't get along with and to be inclusive and work together even though this child has been horrible to them is unbelievable. This is not how things work in adulthood. If someone treats you like crap in adulthood, you don't force a friendship, so why should it be the same for children? And funnily, for 2 years it was my dc being forced to be kind and work with these children, when the chosen ones remain in their cosy little group.

Mousy, I'm glad you complained about that. Sounds terrible! I must say, our school hasn't sunken to that level, and as far as I'm aware it's the children from broken families and having a tough time at home who get taken to these special places.

Western, I'm an introvert and was not a chosen one at school. the consumerism part of that blog quite interested me because I always strive to educate myself about something before making a purchase. I'm very very conscious about being a sheep too: I always do things differently on purpose!

Maisypops, since the start of the thread I've been talking about the same faces being chosen every single time. If you give other children a chance then good on you.

Outwith, that's a really good point about the link with bullying. We had a similar experience with my DS class (albeit more subtle than you describe) with one teacher favouring dominant children who were either bullying/later started bullying, seemingly oblivious to the fact that she was feeding the bullying. Schools seem to be stuck in the view that all bullying is caused by low self-esteem, and therefore bullies need to be made to feel good about themselves. Your post has prompted me to google this. There seems to be quite a lot of evidence the opposite is the case, that bullies have higher self-esteem and social status, and that the social status leads to the bullying, not the other way around.

That article is good, especially the point about it causing a class system. That's exactly what it's felt like with my DS class, and of course that's going to lead to the children in the 'higher class' looking down on those in the 'lower class'. Why would they have respect for those children, when the teacher is behaving as though he/she doesn't?

SameKids, that sounds familiar. My DC are often asked to help others. I often feel teachers look at them and think, 'Oh, a compliant, helpful child. What can they do for me/the school/the other children?' while less helpful children get things done for them.

Schools seem to be stuck in the view that all bullying is caused by low self-esteem, and therefore bullies need to be made to feel good about themselves
Not seen that in any school I've worked in.

I was bullied as a kid by a girl who was in care (and also a victim of bullying because she was in care). She was punished for it and it was dealt with.

Teacher now and bullying isn't tolerated. If there are other issues contributing to a child bullying then there are procedures in place but in no way shape or form are bullies rewarded and appeased.

MaisyPops, I have seen this in schools I've been involved with, both as a parent and teacher.

Of course, teachers who do this don't regard the things they're doing for the bullies as rewards. They see them as opportunities to teach them responsibility, team-work, etc. But if there's a shortage of these opportunities, they are educationally advantageous, and other children are missing out on them because they are disproportionately given to bullies, they have the effect of rewarding bullying, even though they weren't meant to do so.

"Bullying isn't tolerated." I really, really wish this were the case. Sadly, bullying is badly handled in many schools. There are numerous threads on here attesting to that, as well as evidence gathered by the NSPCC, Kidscape and academic researchers.

Maisie I’d like to address your post too.

I agree that teachers don’t think appeasing bullies is the way to go. But the point is rather that there has been in the past a different idea of what the typical bully looked like. They were thought, as Nemo said, to be social misfits who engaged in bullying to raise their low self-esteem. They needed to be helped to find ways to increase their self-esteem without resorting to anti-social behaviour.

Recent research, however, has overturned this stereotype. It turns out that bullies tend to be well-integrated individuals with high self-esteem. And they aren’t lacking in social skills. Instead they are so-called ‘bi-strategic controllers' who ‘use kind friendly tactics one minute and cruel, intimidating ones the next’.

‘Peers admire these ambidextrous leaders for their rule-breaking, particularly middle school kids who want to act older and want to flaunt authority. Add another complication: these part charismatic, part malicious popular kids get away with their behavior because teachers favor them and are less inclined to see the bad side.’

(The full article I’m quoting from can be found here: www.sun-sentinel.com/sfe-sfp-popular-kids-story.html)

In short, children who engage in bullying are often popular with their classmates and with their teachers!

I know exactly what you mean - we've been at a school which did a pretty good job of picking plays where you had nearly all the kids traipsing on stage and it was fun to watch to another where it was always a select few with the parents weeping into their hankies for the worst performances I'd ever seen! The previous infants school (younger kids) had been far superior!

Just popping back to say sorry - MaisyPops not Maisie in earlier post!

nemogold
I have no doubt it goes on. Our head said any teacher who says it doesn't go on is a fool. The thing is when it goes on and is reported, how do we deal with it.
OutwiththeOutCrowd
I know. I'm just saying that whilst I'll not speak for all schools, there's lots of excellent anti bullying work going on in school.
use kind friendly tactics one minute and cruel, intimidating ones the next’.
Absolutely. It's why when we're doing group work our school policy is for teachers to decide groups. There's nothing worse than kids using that as an opportunity to bully. It also means we can separate people.
children who engage in bullying are often popular with their classmates and with their teachers!
Children who bully can be massive suck ups and sycophants. But that doesn't mean that teachers are oblivious (some may be. Especially younger staff who can get targeted by bullies at secondary and feel they have to get the ring leader on board).

I guess what bugs me on some of these threads is sweeping statements about schools not doing anytging/ leaving kids out. Then when you say "I get it. But this is what we're doing to try and make it better" the replies are essentially "but those kids are brats who plays the teacher" as if to say well you're incompetent so it clearly wouldn't work. Like "I want change but no change is good enough & you're so rubbish at dealing with kids you don't know what's going on"

MaisyPops, I never understand why the schools that seem unable to deal with this don't learn from the excellent schools.

My sons never had problems but my daughter was a victim of years of bullying in primary school. I can only say the school were worse than useless and the teacher she had for year 5 and 6 was as bad as the bullies and enabled them on several occasions and ignored their behaviour on many many occasions.

My daughter ended up at the same senior school as several of the bullies. I spoke to the Head at her new school and was given assurances about behaviour and she was in a different form to the bullies. Of course that didn't stop them and within 2 weeks the little darlings were at it again. I contacted the school and was told.

1. The girls would be seen
2. The head of year would not leave school that day until he had spoken to their parents
3. The following day my daughter would receive written apologies from the girls
4. The girls had been warned that if they or any of their friends caused any more problems there would be serious consequences. They were advised that the safest thing for them would be to tell nobody that they had been disciplined as if those friends said or did anything they would also be punished even if they were not directly involved.

After years of problems it stopped, completely and overnight. I thought they were wonderful and couldn't believe how easily it was dealt with.

Same at my dd's school - same 2 girls take the lead in the plays, same 2 girls win all of the "competitions", same 2 girls in photos on the outside of the classroom doing outdoor learning - my dd has started to notice (only 5yo so it must be bloody obvious).
Guess what - both moms on the PTA, one pals with the TA in the class. Just a coincidence? Nah...

Hope you get some photos soon op

I actually don’t mind too much about other people’s children cropping up more frequently in photos or videos.

When a short video of DS’s class doing a little dance together was uploaded to the school website, everyone was perfectly in frame except my DS whose presence was indicated only by a hovering hand dipping in and out of view on the far left. Somehow it just summed up my DS’s primary school career!

I wasn’t too bothered because looking winsome on camera is a bit of a niche skill. But I do think being given the chance to speak out in assemblies, give presentations and appear on stage is important. So many jobs require public speaking skills these days.

I also think all children benefit from leadership opportunities. Being a leader doesn’t have to be about bossing others around. It can be about nurturing and guiding others to produce the best work they are capable of. In other words, there are leadership styles to suit all temperaments.

Of all the times DS ended up not being chosen – and there were many of those – I think the one that niggled most was not being chosen to show prospective families round the school on Open Day. Most of the Y6 children were given the chance to do this. It just brought home to me that DS didn’t fit the mould and wasn’t seen as a good advert for the school.

He’s now at secondary school and is allowed to show his face on Open Days and represent the school. So there is hope for those who aren’t the poster girls and boys of the primary school years.

I guess what bugs me on some of these threads is sweeping statements about schools not doing anytging/ leaving kids out. Then when you say "I get it. But this is what we're doing to try and make it better" the replies are essentially "but those kids are brats who plays the teacher" as if to say well you're incompetent so it clearly wouldn't work. Like "I want change but no change is good enough & you're so rubbish at dealing with kids you don't know what's going on

The problem is, people speak only from their own experience. So when they say the school is leaving kids out/not doing anything, that's their reality. It's encouraging to hear of other schools where this isn't the case, but if these changes aren't being implemented in their own school it's not much help.

I can understand how to a teacher threads like this could feel like a personal attack, but I'm certain no one would hesitate to say there are some truly fabulous sensitive, encouraging teachers out there who do their best to level the playing field. In my children's case, it was the overall ethos of the school and the management style/personality of the headteacher that simply didn't recognise the potential of more introverted children and created an environment where the confident, charming, outgoing kids were constantly rewarded, as I guess they reflected the values the school wanted to promote. The individual teachers who did encourage my children were all the more appreciated, and will never be forgotten.

I've been guilty of over-generalising ("I think schools are stuck in the view...") and I'm sorry for that, because I've known plenty of teachers who don't have favourites, and who deal with bullying well. I had a particular school in mind when I wrote that. As OddMollie says, we're biased by our own children's experiences because that's what matters to us, and the efforts of individual teachers can sometimes be thwarted by the overall school culture. Also, when parents describe their experiences, and someone says, "teachers do X, Y and Z to make sure that doesn't happen", it can feel like a denial of the truth of parents' experiences.

As Outwith describes, bullying takes different forms and, in my experience, teachers sometimes assume it's due to low self-esteem when there's really no indication of that in the behaviours shown, social status within the class or background of the child. Of course a child in care, who's been bullied herself, will have low self esteem, but this wasn't the form the bullying took in my DS's class. It was children at the top of the pecking order, picking on those with lower status. When teachers then give those children special roles, they reinforce their higher status.

This frustrated me because the teachers in question knew exactly what those children were like, and how they were behaving. It seemed they were thinking only of their needs (they have a need to be in charge, so let's put them in charge), not the needs of the quieter children,

As OddMollie says, teachers who encourage introverts are appreciated and remembered. The children/parents just might not express that appreciation (because they're introverts).

I think it’s important to remember teachers have a difficult job to do when it comes to choosing amongst children. Do they always pick the ‘best’ children for a given activity or give all children a go, regardless of apparent talent?

Personally I’m convinced of the latter strategy.

For a start it’s often difficult to identify potential. Children can seem more accomplished for quite arbitrary reasons. They are older than classmates, have matured faster, have parents who’ve paid for lessons out of school or they are simply good at self-promotion. And once chosen, and given extra training, children who were slightly more skilled can quickly become children who are significantly more skilled. But, of course, that is not at all indicative of latent ability.

If children are not chosen for teams and become convinced that sport – or physical activity of any sort – isn’t for them, that seems a much more significant matter than the school failing to win top spot in some league table.

On top of that, football, in particular, can become a divisive social tool. The PE teacher who routinely leaves a few boys out of the team is helping to set up a hierarchy amongst the boys with the better footballers feeling justified in excluding their less skilled classmates from games in the playground. In practice, this often means there are a handful of low status boys who are destined to exist on the margins of playground society, however much they’d like to join in.

When it comes to school plays, teachers sometimes feel they have to roll out the ‘best’ thespians - and loud, confident children can be seen as the obvious choice. But with a little encouragement a quieter, more reticent child can often produce a good performance.

In any case, the clunkiness of school plays is part of their charm. Nobody expects or wants a seamless production. Hissed prompts, hesitant lines, furtive nose picking, wobbly scenery, dodgy costumes and off-key singing are what it’s all about.

So, to sum up, let the strategy be optimising on learning opportunities for all over showcasing the talent of a few, even if the school ends up looking a little less polished as a consequence.

(Sorry to go on, but I can’t stop thinking - and writing - about this topic!)

Off on school camp next week with 60 year 6s.

The only time I can send photos back is once the children are asleep (after 10pm).

The only place we get good enough reception to send photos is up on the big field, with no light.

So, here's my choice:

1. Collect all 5 group leaders' cameras (not allowed to use personal phones due to safeguarding).

Download the day's photos from the 5 different activity groups onto my tablet. Check down list of names to ensure I am sending pictures of all children so parents don't meet me off the coach saying 'Where was the photo of Little Johnny, eh?' Walk up to field in pitch black/rain/high wind (last year was particularly lovely...) Hold tablet up in the air to get full reception. Stand still until all the photos have sent to school. Re-send and re-send as sending fails.... Go back to group leaders, return camera cards and give them list of children they haven't snapped yet and request that they prioritise photos of them the next day. Repeat on Tuesday, Wednesday + Thursday evening.

OR

1. Don't send ANY photos.

KingscoteStaff
I think you are missing the point. Why not send photos from your group on day 1, and then another group on day 2 etc. Or get an extra helper or someone to go around and get a range on photos on one camera.

OP - I wish with hindsight that I had moved all my children from their "Outstanding" school when I observed as the children were going on a residential, that the Teachers accepted hats made for them and their group by the IN group. Not even trying to suppress that kind of chronism caused all kinds of issues for the younger children.

Once we get back from camp, we will be auditioning for the Year 6 Leavers' Production. 60 children.

I have got 2 possible shows in mind.

Show One:
An adaptation of a Roald Dahl novel. 12 large parts (10+ lines), 10 smaller parts (3+ lines), 8 musicians (they would compose pieces as well as perform several instruments), 15 'contemporary' dancers (2 numbers), 15 'street dance' dancers (2 numbers). Dances would be choreographed and taught by our specialist dance teacher.

OR

Show Two
A show written by Out of the Ark. A series of shorter sketches, linked with a theme.
All 60 children would have at least 1 line.
All children would sing songs together.

I think that the first show would be a performance of a better standard. It's also what my DC's school did (DS was a musician and DD a dancer).

As parents, what would you rather your children were working on for the final 5 weeks of their Primary school career? And what would you prefer to watch?

mummytime No extra helper!
If we do one group a day, you can bet that one child will be missed out, or be in the photo alongside the child whose image can't be shared.

Hats situation is just bizarre. Team hats for everyone or no one. Our lovely PTA pay for Leavers' hoodies so we all head off feeling like a team.

Really good points, Outwith. I've noticed a few ways in which teachers have inadvertently affected the social dynamic of a class. For example, a class in which half of the children were given a coveted role (and it wasn't on the basis of hard work or kindness!). By a few weeks into the year, friendships had altered and the children were referring to themselves as the X (name of role) and the non-X.

A point about school plays - it seems to be assumed that children who don't like talking in the classroom won't be able to do so on the stage, but the two skills are very different. The classroom is a social situation, in which you have to keep up with a fast-paced discussion and decide what to say, and where there are social consequences for saying the wrong thing. In a play you have a script and stage directions to follow. There are no complex social rules which some children don't understand. There are successful actors & actresses who claim to be introverts, uncomfortable in social situations.

Kingscote, your first option sounds fairly inclusive, as long as the musicians and dancers have chosen those roles. Couldn't some smaller roles be expanded, though, by adding some lines, if children wanted to do more? There might also be some superfluous lines in the larger roles, which could be cut. I've known drama teachers modify scripts like this, to make the roles more balanced.

It depends on your aim, though. I imagine show 2 would be more bonding. As others have said, standard of performance shouldn't be the main aim of a primary school performance. It's about what the children learn from it.

A point about school plays - it seems to be assumed that children who don't like talking in the classroom won't be able to do so on the stage, but the two skills are very different. The classroom is a social situation, in which you have to keep up with a fast-paced discussion and decide what to say, and where there are social consequences for saying the wrong thing. In a play you have a script and stage directions to follow. There are no complex social rules which some children don't understand. There are successful actors & actresses who claim to be introverts, uncomfortable in social situations.

Really good point, I remember being amazed years ago when I saw Laurence Olivier being interviewed. He was generally highly regarded as an actor but the interview was excruciating as he seemed to be crippled with shyness and barely able to string a sentence together. I wonder if he ever got a part in a school play?

I have read that Tom Hanks is very shy.