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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do schools have "chosen" children? 🙄

308 replies

SameKidsAgain · 09/05/2017 17:16

My dc is on a school residential atm and the teachers are constantly posting updates of them on fb but only pics of the same kids who are chosen for EVERY school photo opportunity. I don't get it. I'd really like to see some other children (including mine!) enjoying themselves too...but it's always the same ones over and over again, every year and every term for every topic. It's so bloody annoying and unfair, like those handful of elite children represent the whole school year 😡. Well they don't.

OP posts:
Doowappydoo · 11/05/2017 00:36

I'm not convinced this kind of favouriting is at all common, either in photos or parts in plays etc; I've never seen it in the three schools my DCs have gone to.

Re the trip photos why would teachers only post photos of "favourites" on a private parents group ? Isn't it far more likely that its coincidental eg a particular group happen to be with the teacher with the camera or some kids just don't want their pictures taken? Feel for the teachers though; giving up their evenings and weekends to take kids on a residential whilst parents sit at home moaning about the photos.

This subject has been done to death but just to round off, my take is that the same children do often get main parts or picked to do certain things but ime it's because they are good at whatever it is and more importantly want to it. My DS came home last term moaning about his friend getting the main part again so I asked him how parts were chosen, he said that his teacher asked who wanted to do it and his friend put his hand up, "oh" said I "did you put your hand up as well?" "err no" was the answerHmm

I've also been on the PTA, off the PTA and back on again. It's never made any difference, seriously doubt any teacher I've come across either knows or cares who is on it.

MaisyPops · 11/05/2017 06:30

doowappy
Sounds fairly reasonable. Haha. Kids can be funny sometimes.

One told me yesterday that it wasn't fair he got into trouble and his friend didn't.

did you friend display the same behavior as you?
no. But I was just...

It's like we have opportunities to go out of school (secondary). Some kids complain that some kids get out of school more. My response "did you join that extra curricular club?" Answer, no.
I was out doing all sorts in school. Quiet kid, bullied by the loud popular girls. Had the opportunities because in went to the clubs and worked hard.

I think a lot of people will have a shock when their kids get to secondary and all this end of year play PTA drama massively reduces when there's 250 kids in a year group, kids who are better at things end up with opportunities and parents meet staff once a year at parents evening. But for some people it'll still be a conspiracy against their kid even if their child doesn't sign up for activities because 'they can't help it when they'll automatically go to the primary favorites because they've got confidence and the rest havent'.

haveacupoftea · 11/05/2017 06:39

I was one of those children at school for some reason. I have no idea why as I wasn't particularly bright or talented and definitely not attractive. My mum hardly even went to parent teacher meetings and I was fairly bedraggled most days. Yet the teachers always put me forward for things and wanted me in photos. Maybe they felt sorry for me Blush

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 11/05/2017 08:04

Once again more assumptions made about unchosen children.

People are also making assumptions about chosen children

ZeroFuchsGiven · 11/05/2017 09:45

There is so much nastiness towards children on here, Its pathetic.

SameKidsAgain · 11/05/2017 09:51

Well no pictures have been posted for a few tweets now. I prefer no pictures than same faces over and over.

OP posts:
brasty · 11/05/2017 10:10

Doowappydo I agree. And as I have already said as someone who has organised and worked on such trips, the most experienced teacher will have the most challenging kids or kids with SEN. You give the easy kids to volunteer helpers. Not fair to give them kids that take more work. I never had time to take photos of kids, I was too busy trying to meet the needs of kids and give them a good time. When I did it, it would have been a volunteer helper who actually had the time to take photos.

Also you only need 1 kid in your group who is determined to photobomb any photos with v signs or similar, to mean that you don't post any photos you take.

jojo2916 · 11/05/2017 10:33

The kids photographed more are probably the ones engaging with the other kids, teachers and activities, I've been on these trips and some of the children you have to coax them todo anything and they spend time miserable refusing to join in, there's only so much encouraging and pushing to join in you can do, the kids getting involved with it all and enjoying it are more likely to be photographed, seems unfair but wouldn't surprise me at all if this was often the case in these situations

brasty · 11/05/2017 10:34

True you are not going to put photos of kids looking miserable up.

inashizzle · 11/05/2017 10:35

Whats worse is when kids from well off backgrounds that have had private tutoring, costly sports/dance/music that does give advantage are given funding for £500 summer drama workshops or their sports trips paid for or the like. They were from well off homes. Same kids won every year highest achievers. I know as my daughter was amongst these( never got a thing paid for though and she was only one whose family were low income and I was very uncomfortable with it as emphasis should have been on overall improvement. I know all the winners and they were good kids but it was clear the school brown nosed them- can be used as a credit to the school particularly the head.

OddMollie · 11/05/2017 11:58

MaisyPops it's a bit unreasonable to take the points made on this thread as personal attacks about how you do your job in your school (with the utmost competence and sensitivity, I'm sure) and at the same time dismiss as invalid the experiences of parents and children in schools you can't possibly know about. I have 3dc, the youngest of whom is doing GCSEs now and I have never, in all their years in the education system (eldest is now 22) made a complaint about them being overlooked. There is, however, absolutely no doubt that it happened. It's now quite a family joke, so none of them have been permanently scarred by it, but I do think that more could be done in many schools to accommodate introverted characters and recognise their strengths and achievements instead of only seeming to notice the loud, confident, charismatic kids. If your school is already doing that, that's fantastic.

nemogold · 11/05/2017 12:09

This thread has become quite hostile, which is a shame because this is an important issue. Feeling valued, and having effort and accomplishments recognised/rewarded/given opportunities, is vastly important to children. (How many adults would stay in a job if they were working hard, achieving, but not being recognised, while others were getting recognition?) Yes, I know it's been done to death, but when this sort of thing happens, it's so upsetting that people need to vent, and why shouldn't they do so here? Anyone who is fed up of the subject doesn't need to read it.

I've seen favouritism in two of the schools my DC have attended, but not in the third, so I don't think it's inevitable (and within the schools, there are teachers who don't seem to do it). To the teacher who says he/she chooses the quiet, well-behaved, undemanding, hard-working children, I believe you, and wish you worked in my DC's school. In my DC's school, this is precisely the sort of child least likely to be chosen.

I think there are a few things going one. Some teachers (not all) choose the children most likely to protest if they're not chosen. That tends to be the most assertive, confident ones, who aren't afraid of being seen as rude to adults. The teachers aren't necessarily conscious of doing this. My DS is extremely compliant, polite and afraid of being told off/drawing attention to himself. Teachers know (again, not necessarily consciously) they can leave him out, without there being any fuss for them to deal with (he'll go home and cry, but they don't see/deal with that, and don't believe me when I tell them). This is probably happening more and more, as teachers have more pressures put on their time, and need to get things done as quickly, and with as little fuss, as possible.

I've tried to teach my DC to stand up for themselves, and challenge unfairness, but they do this in such a quiet, ultra-polite way, that the teachers just fob them off with, 'I had a reason for choosing her/I chose carefully/maybe next time'. They've now learned that there isn't any point in trying to do this. I've also pointed it out to teachers several times, but am similarly fobbed off (I have a similar personality to my children!).

The other thing (and there's research evidence to support this) is that people tend to mistake confidence for competence, particularly where leadership roles are concerned. There's a cultural stereotype that you need to be dominant and competitive to be a good leader. Actually, introverts make good leaders because they listen to others' ideas and are more likely to compromise (read 'Quiet', by Susan Cain). They tend to be more concerned with getting the job done in the best way, rather than having people do what they say. (Of course, this is a generalisation too, and confident children can have good leadership skills, but the point is, at the moment, there is a belief in a lot of schools that the socially confident children are the only ones who will make good leaders, and the quiet children aren't getting a chance to show what they can do). I've seen my DS's leadership skills at scouts, where he is given a chance. I just wish the teachers could see him there. Time and again, on threads like this, parents of quiet children have said, 'When my child finally got a chance, everyone was amazed at what he could do'. The parent wasn't amazed - they'd known what their child was capable of all along. My DS has nearly finished primary school now, and has never been chosen to be a group leader in a classroom activity/have a leadership role in the school. The teachers have a certain impression of what he's capable of, and they vastly underestimate him.

These things are important because soft skills (leadership, public speaking, talking to different sorts of people) are as important as qualifications. Where academic subjects are concerned, schools seem to focus their resources on those who struggle but, where soft skills are concerned, they give them to those who already have the skills (as if the purpose of school is a show-case for skills children already have, rather than a place of education for all). The children who most need these experiences are the ones least likely to be given them. It's also true that this is a socio-economic issue, as children whose parents can afford out of school activities are more likely to have confidence and social skills (and therefore are given more opportunities to develop these in school). The Matthew effect in action.

Another thing that happens is that, once a child gets themselves noticed, they are more likely to be chosen in the future because teachers think of them. For example, my DD got a higher grade in an exam (and consistently higher marks in class - they're friends so they compare their marks) than another girl, but the other girl got the end of year award for that subject. I can only assume this is because she's on sports teams and in drama productions, and is therefore more 'visible' within the school. The award was supposed to be for excellence in that subject though, so anything else the girl did within the school shouldn't have been relevant. Again, I'm not claiming anyone sits down and thinks, 'We know her, so let's choose her'. She is just more visible, and her name is known.

Teachers do have enormous pressures on them, but this is something that is so easily fixable, and I think that's why parents get so frustrated. It doesn't take any resources, just a bit of thought, communication with other teachers about who had done things previously, and (perhaps most importantly) willingness to challenge stereotypes about different personalities.

SameKidsAgain · 11/05/2017 12:18

nemogold, what a brilliant post. 👏👏👏

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OddMollie · 11/05/2017 12:30

Yes nemogold Yes, yes, yes. Thanks for expressing that so brilliantly.

tanfield90 · 11/05/2017 14:12

Just to lighten the tone of this thread, and to view the flipside of the coin, have you (when you were a child), or one of your children, ever found your self participating in an activity you DIDN'T want any part in ?
I can think of three from circa 1977:

Playing the recorder, which led to...
...playing the violin
And, the most heinous of all, Maypole dancing !

I would been delighted if the teachers had looked the other way on these occasions but no, I was unlucky. I would happily have acted as Maypole ballast (one of four children who sat on the base of the pole to keep it steady) and I even volunteered but it did no good. I had two left feet (still have) and felt an utter cissy (today's primary school children might denounce MP as 'gay') and yes, there are photographs somewhere which recorded the whole thing. Again, I would have been delighted if the cameras had all malfunctioned. If ever there was one school occasion when I could have merged into the background, it was this.

nemogold · 11/05/2017 14:51

Thanks samekids and OddMollie. I don't post on forums often but when I do, I write an essay.

I also think these inequalities are more noticeable now than years ago because of cultural changes, and changes in education. For example:

-Far more group-work, and ‘student-voice’ than when I was at school (so more opportunities for leadership roles) makes it more obvious when a certain type of child is being chosen.

  • A more competitive society, which filters into education, so competitive sports are very important. Therefore children who are good at them are highly regarded generally. When I was at school, I had no idea who was on the school teams (and I’m guessing most teachers didn’t). Now their names are in the newsletter, and teachers outside the PE department know who they are.
  • Schools need to market themselves, hence the photos of ‘children who look good in a photo’. (I was quite shocked at the admission of a pp that choice of a certain type of child to photograph is a conscious decision!) My dd has AS, and often wears a ‘deer in the headlights’ expression at school, as she’s trying to deal with the sensory overload and work out how to behave. Photos tend to be full of ‘cheesy grin’ children. (Ironically, the school prides itself on understanding autism.)

All of the chosen children in my DS’s class are of a certain type – confident, talkative, dominant children who are good at competitive sports (I’ve nothing against them being chosen for the sports teams, btw, but they get chosen for things totally unrelated to sport too). The ‘left-out’ children are the introverts, the undemanding, the ones most likely to wait their turn rather than say ‘I want’, and those with niche interests (think things like St John’s Ambulance & rowing – not actual examples) or no activities (because their parents can’t afford it). They don’t even get chosen for opportunities for which a quiet, gentle, patient personality is ideal (things like buddying younger children). This isn’t a dig at the chosen children – just an observation.

I've had years of tears and disappointment. It's just exhausting. And I do worry that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as they miss out on confidence-boosting opportunities and learn to think of themselves as 'rubbish compared to others'.

nemogold · 11/05/2017 14:57

That has been hugely therapeutic. Thanks, SameKids, for starting the thread. These threads are needed, if only to reassure us 'parents of the unchosen' that it's a school phenomenon, not about our children as individuals.

SameKidsAgain · 11/05/2017 15:44

No problem nemo, your comments make complete and absolute sense and you've written things down much better than I ever could!

One more night at residential then home tomorrow!

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TrinityTaylor · 11/05/2017 15:47

Great post, nemo. I would love to see someone intelligently prove your points wrong, don't think anyone could. I don't understand why people think because this doesn't happen at THEIR school where they work, or their kids go, that it doesn't happen at all. I've never had a creepy/letchy boss, for example, but I know plenty of people who have, so I believe they exist in some workplaces.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 11/05/2017 15:54

The vast, vast majority of people on this thread have said that even though they havent seen it that favoritism is absolutely a thing

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 11/05/2017 15:55

That was for trinity

Lambzig · 11/05/2017 16:12

I think it's sometimes so blatant. At DDs school they had an Easter egg decorating competition for reception, year 1 and 2. There was a prize for the best egg in each year. Three siblings from one family won all 3 prizes. Two of those 3 children got the lead parts in the school play.

Guess who is all over the website photos from sports day?

They are lovely children, but it seems unfair that no-one else gets a look-in.

nemogold · 11/05/2017 16:19

I should have added that the chosen children are all competitive. I think that's important. The school system now (not all schools, I know) seems to favour competitive Type A personalities. But introverts don't tend to be competitive, and trying to be better than others isn't the only way to succeed in life. I'm in a very non-competitive area of work (collaboration is more important), and believe I'm doing a worthwhile job. I've always been more motivated by learning/creating/achieving a goal than out-performing other people, and my children seem to be the same.

I think children get very mixed messages at school, being told to be inclusive, and that everyone is different and valued and you should be yourself/be kind/think of others, but living in a system where these traits aren't actually valued in practice, and the adults in charge aren't always inclusive.

OddMollie · 11/05/2017 16:27

nemo I think social media has a huge role in this too, and feeds into the cycle of confidence and popularity. At secondary level The A list kids - girls particularly - tend to be savvy social media users who tap into this as a means of securing their place in the group, and often appear a lot older and more sophisticated than their years (and peers) which affects people's perception of them.

I don't know whereabouts you are in your dc's journey through the system but, as a note of encouragement, my eldest is now 22 and was always entirely invisible at school, even when she won a series of national awards (entered off her own bat) for her creative subject. She suffered debilitating anxiety at 6th form but fought it to go to university, where she absolutely flourished because, as she said, she was able to be herself for the first time and wasn't defined by the school's view of her (or lack of one!) She graduated with a first, and won a much-contested internship for her niche subject - which she almost didn't apply for and was astonished to get, because years of being overlooked had left their mark! But equally, all those years of quietly plodding on, self-motivating, doing her own thing also paid off. However, it's an exhausting uphill struggle, and for many children the outcome will be very different. I don't yet know how things will work out for my younger dc, who I think have been more affected by this issue for the reasons you identify.

mousymary · 11/05/2017 16:27

The one time I stuck my head above the parapet at the dc's primary school was when the headteacher formed an "Enrichment Group" which went on a programme of activities. Why this was or what for I had no idea, but had they chosen disadvantaged pupils, pupil premium pupils, pupils with ill parents etc etc, I'd have had no problem at all. But... the head chose six outgoing, confident pupils who did things such as sketching in the National Gallery, a visit to Parliament with the local MP, kayaking... The same six children for all these things! Dd and some others called them The Chosen Few.

I wrote two emails ( the first one received no reply) just asking why the love wasn't spread around. Sketching for the artistically inclined, kayaking for the sporty etc etc. I got short shrift but apparently masses of parents had complained and in fact the head got into trouble about it as a lot of money had been spent treating this small group.

As others have said, what the children all had in common was that they were eager beaver outgoing types. I suppose we all like that type of personality, even as adults, but it really is a duty of teachers to try to reach the shy introverts.

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