Do people really think no black British or immigrants voted Brexit?

[streetface]

Just that really. Laughing at some of the comments about Brexit being a racist vote from people who don't like 'brown people'.

I wonder how many of these people commenting live in predominantly black areas and are remotely aware of how many non-white people voted for Brexit. Lots of naive Mumsnetters.

A friend of mine works at Leicester University. Before the Referundum, they put together an event to promote the EU and invited several high-level politicians to speak. Corbyn refused to stand on a platform with not just Cameron, but with someone reading Cameron's words in Cameron's absence (the uni tried to work out a compromise).
From what I remember, Labour also refused to work with the existing pro- EU group, but instead set up their own group (Labour In?), diluting the effectiveness of the pro EU campaign.
It's all very well having principles, but a little effectiveness would have been useful.

When people complain that Corbyn's fact and evidence based arguments in favour of Remain were not "Passionate"

He was using the same fact and evidence based argument of many of the tories that backed remain, plus it glosses over the "principled" man who has been anti EU pretty much his whole career.

It seems Corbyn is the only politician to not be able to change his mind, if he said it in 1975 he still means it now

He voted against the Treaty of Lisbon in 2008, which rather more recent.

Justanotherlurker Tue 09-May-17 19:32:39

Couldn't agree more

Of course JC can change his mind but did he

1. `Above all, the European Economic Community takes away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need.'

Tony Blair, writing in his personal manifesto when standing for Parliament in Beaconsfield in 1982

1. `We'll negotiate a withdrawal from the EEC which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs.'

Tony Blair, pledging his opposition to the EEC when standing for Parliament in Sedgefield in 1983

1. `On the day we remember the legend that St George slayed a dragon to protect England, some would argue that there is another dragon to be slayed: Europe.'

Tony Blair, in patriotic and vote winning mood on St George's Day 1997 in an interview with 'The Sun' newspaper

1. `I am a passionate pro-European. I always have been.'

Tony Blair, speaking to the EU Parliament in 2005

It seems Corbyn is the only politician to not be able to change his mind, if he said it in 1975 he still means it now hmm

Nope most people understand that situations are more nuanced in the real world, JC and his supporters have nailed their colours to the mast for "a man of his principals", it's ignoring his past and trying to score cheap political points that makes you look hypocritical rather than being nuanced.

1. `On the day we remember the legend that St George slayed a dragon to protect England, some would argue that there is another dragon to be slayed: Europe.'

Tony Blair, in patriotic and vote winning mood on St George's Day 1997 in an interview with 'The Sun' newspaper

^^ WOW

UKIP, for now, have been defused

Because the Conservative party have out-ukipped UKIP. There is no need for them because, essentially, the Tories have taken on all of their policies and made them even worse! Even the great Farage himself has said that UKIP's policies wouldn't have gone as far as May's.

To be honest, I would rather have UKIP remain as a political party for the foreseeable future, making a noisy nuisance of itself on the sidelines, than have it disappear because the Tories have actually implemented all their policies. There will be a reaction to this shift to the right in years to come, probably with a closer re-alignment to Europe, but I don't know how long it will take.

I find it quite fascinating seeing a lot of my extreme left friends do mental gymnastics over the fact that they are championing an ex banker, full on neo liberal who is on the side of welfare reform as a moral victory of their ideology.

The French electoral system is designed to be a two-horse race. I have some very socialist French friends who have concerns about Macron's governance. They still voted for him. They're not championing him, but they know he's a much better option than Le Pen would have been.

That's interesting Grape, I'd not thought of it that way. But surely my initial argument still holds - that if there is a strong will for a particular aim, like Brexit, a party like UKIP will crop up to push it. Ignoring that point of view (as the UK government has done for over 30 years has done) will only make that party stronger. The major political parties in France have been taken from power for the same reason, also see the rise of the right in the Netherlands.

Because the Conservative party have out-ukipped UKIP. There is no need for them because, essentially, the Tories have taken on all of their policies and made them even worse! Even the great Farage himself has said that UKIP's policies wouldn't have gone as far as May's

Could you give some examples Grace ?

I guess I agree that the Tories have absorbed UKIP bacause they have accepted to move ahead with Brexit, UKIP's raison d'etre. But there still remains the truth (IMO) that UKIP gained many votes because, up to the Referendum, many of the electorate felt that the major political parties weren't listening to them.
If you hadn't had a Referendum, that demand would not have gone away, but would have increased. Would it really be a sensible course of action to ignore the electorate, no matter what you think of their opinions?

If you don't see a problem for the left with many mainly better educated, wealthier, more middle class people on the left throwing insults and slurs at, and failing to listen to, mainly less educated, less wealthy, more likely working class people then all I can say is that I really don't recognise your version of left wing politics which, for me, has always been about equality and empowerment of working people.
I just cannot for the life of me see what is in any way left wing, egalitarian or progressive about the way you are dismissing the vilification of people who voted leave.
I suspect though, your attitude is not uncommon, and I think this is why the Labour party is in such dire straits. It's kind of left wing politics without the class or economic politics, which is never going to work really. What do you have left?- a bit of identity politics and not a lot else.

Um, I think you are confusing me with a left-winger or even a Labour voter. I don't know why on earth you're doing that. I don't know why you think I have a version of left-wing politics so I really don't understand why you think I'm not sticking to them.

My priorities right now are protecting family and friends from the rise of racism - racism that another Brexitter (a Le pen supporter, no less!) is nicely trying to minimise on this thread -(but hey who cares - lets get back to the popular "how dare you call us racist?" refrain) and to try and keep our jobs (that Brexit is threatening).

Still, let's pretend that the real division, the most important division of Brexit is apparently how some left-wing people - (except oh no, they might not actually all be left-wing) are throwing such terrible insults and such terrible slurs about the choices of some other people - (except no, perhaps they didn't, or perhaps even sometimes its true).

That sure is the 'heart-breaking' tragedy of Brexit.

So will you be happy with a Conservative win at the GE histiny?

Um, I think you are confusing me with a left-winger or even a Labour voter. I don't know why on earth you're doing that. I don't know why you think I have a version of left-wing politics so I really don't understand why you think I'm not sticking to them

Because you said earlier that you can't vote Labour at the present time and will vote LD or spoil your ballot paper. I assumed this meant you are usually a Labour voter, apologies if this is not the case and I misunderstood.

I find it hard to understand being concerned about racism but not from a concern for general equality and respect of others. I suppose it is possible to be concerned about racism because it effects people you know and care about (and/or oneself) rather than having a more general desire for equality (as well as caring about people you know) but that is not a stance I can pretend to understand.

If you would be happy with a Tory win, then, you are right, my point doesn't apply to you. If you would not be happy with a Tory win, then I really cannot understand how division amongst people who would, in the past, have worked together to support a non-Tory government is not a concern to you.

And if you aren't in any way left wing, then my point does not apply to you, but still applies to plenty of other people on the left.

And you can sneerily try to reduce the point I am making to it being about a few people feeling a bit put out at being called names if you like. In my view, there is a deep crisis in our political systems in the UK and elsewhere and I really don't thing it's something to be dismissive about.

Because the Conservative party have out-ukipped UKIP. There is no need for them because, essentially, the Tories have taken on all of their policies and made them even worse! Even the great Farage himself has said that UKIP's policies wouldn't have gone as far as May's

Could you give some examples Grace ?

Nigel Farage said on Any Questions on Radio 4 on sat, that the tory party have delivered on the UKIP 2015 manifesto. So straight for the horses bigoted cockwomble mouth

I have heard NF's comments before but I would be interested to know what, other than leaving the EU, the Tories are doing, and worse, from the UKIP manifesto.

Could you give some examples Grace ?

Having had a glance through the 2015 UKIP Manifesto (thrilling reading) here are just a few pledges the Tories may have had their eye on:

1. rather obviously, Leave the EU. That featured rather prominently... 2)Reduce the cap on benefits
2. Limit child benefit to two children per claimant 4)Cut income tax for higher and middle earners
3. Expand the number of Grammar Schools

Interestingly, there were some areas where they were "softer" than the current goverment, eg

1. A specific pledge that in the result of a referendum decision to leave the EU, EU residents already living in Britain would be given the right to remain living and working here as before; 2)Student numbers should be taken out of the immigration statistics 3)Housing benefit should still be given to claimants under the age of 25.

And most shockingly, I found a couple of points I agreed with! The abolition of SATs tests for seven-year olds for example.

I wait with baited breath for the 2017 manifesto.....it may be a little briefer without the contributions of Mr Banks.

It is funny, that you can vote for a movement funded by Aaron Banks, spear-headed by Farage, and led by three conservative millionaires that WILL lead to huge economic and social problems for this country and for poorer communities in particular, yet you still consider yourself someone who has always been about the equality and empowerment of the working people. and you still think the problem lies not with your choice and the devastating consequences of your choice, but the left-wingers calling you out for it.
One day the penny may drop.
Until then - enjoy the denial.

Thank you for that info Grace

I know histiny, democracy is a real bummer isn't it? We really shouldn't have let those "poorer communities" decide anything important, should we?

Erm, I don't get you. Of course poorer communities should vote. We all decide what we like.

No one is exempt from criticism though.

And anyone who is deluded enough to think they champion equality and empowerment of us working classes and then votes with Farage and Johnson to screw us over deserves all the criticism they get.

So believing in equality and empowerment of the working class and voting the same way in the referendum that the majority of the working class voted is some sort of contradiction and sign of delusion? No, I'm not following your logic.