Seriously, what was ever so wrong with the EU that it has swayed life long Labour voters to vote Tory?

[Bearbehind]

As above really.

Some of the swings to Tory councillors are mind boggling.

What was/ is so bad about the EU that makes this worth it?

Tim Farron's voting record on gay marriage:

I'm not bothered^^ Infinite, it's not abuse just daft rhetoric - but thanks for the flowers 😊

Lots of for you too.

Copper
Nice "I'm all right, Jack" attitude there. Some of us are really struggling under this government. God knows why you think people driven to suicide somehow don't count, if you have MH issues yourself.

And how fucking dare you call my anger at unecessary suffering, pain I live with daily, and all the crap I've faced "liberal hand-wringing". I'm sick of this bullshit that means people care about certain issues to the point where they harm other people by ignoring their plight. Still, maybe you'll understand when they get to you...

Its not daft rhetoric to care about disabled people. And I am allowed to be angry at people enabling this evil government who will in all likelihood cost me my life in he end. Im in huge pain every day, its all I can do to go on, I cant get mental health help and yet people are sympathising with the person who voted for these idiots?
This is exactly what I mean. Apparently some people's struggles matter but others don't.

Copper
Nice "I'm all right, Jack" attitude there. Some of us are really struggling under this government.

Can I draw your attention to this comment I made:
I realise my experience is just my experience, and that others have been treated appallingly,

I'm really struggling to see the "I'm alright Jack" sentiment in that tbh.

God knows why you think people driven to suicide somehow don't count

Never said that.
Don't make shit up.

And how fucking dare you call my anger at unecessary suffering, pain I live with daily, and all the crap I've faced "liberal hand-wringing".

I didn't.
You never once mentioned that you suffer unnecessarily, that you live with pain daily or that you have faced lots of crap.
This is another wilful misrepresentation of my words.

Its not daft rhetoric to care about disabled people.

I didn't say that either.
I said your angry rage at me, personally, was daft rhetoric.

@noblegiraffe

I don't understand why people would shift their vote from Labour to Tory either. If you do one of those quizzes that matches your beliefs and values to party policies

I've just done the quiz and fall pretty centrally with some surprising agreements between different parties. I'm 72% Conservative, 66% UKIP, 51% LAbour, 48% Lib Dem, 42% Sinn Fein, 41% BN.

The least helpful results are economy, transport and immigration (see image).

I think you're very confused as to just what Labour stand for if you see these two parties as so different and offering nothing to the other. Corbyn and Brexit are absolutely 2 main factors in my vote this GE, but obviously weren't when I voted Conservative in the last one. I may have voted differently had we not been leaving the EU and if Corbyn (and others) weren't such a shambles.

I'm centre-right and that's exactly what Conservative tend to give.

I've voted for both Labour and Con. in the past and even a Lib Dem in a local election.

@BBCNewsRave

Where do you fall on that isidewith questionnaire? I simply can't get my head around the "I'd never vote for ..." people and it just simply show a lack of intelligence, in my opinion (unless you're talking about extreme, single issue parties like BNP, SNP etc).

Oh yes, much better to have a party that kills off the disabled.

Your hyperbole does you no favours.

@TheMonkeyandthePlywoodViolin

So you're OK with them scrapping the Human Rights Act?

Aren't you?

It's not "change" bothering a lot of people, it's the negative effect of their lives that no-one seems to give a shit about

I think the post by greatgumboots is spot on.

"traditional" labour voters are often the victims of globalisation. I'm sure if some of the remain voters on here suddenly couldn't get jobs or housing, or in any of their first choice of schools because of an immigration policy they might not be keen on that policy. EU workers are often more qualified and will worker longer hours, like the example of care staff gumboots gave, so they just get passed over.

There are not a limitless supply of jobs and houses, we can't open a limitless number of hospitals, schools, doctors surgeries. When these resources are stretched it is the working classes that are hit the hardest as they don't have any alternatives.

Carolinesbeanies

Have you tried asking your question under the Freedom of Information Act? the Council is legally bound to answer a question such as 'how much is spent on consultants?' You can take up with the FOI Commissioner if you fail to get a satisfactory response.

However, if you ask a question such as how they specifically use a particular funding stream (Government Grant, Council Tax etc.), unless that funding is ring-fenced legally to be used for certain spend types, it would be an impossible question to answer as the non-ring fenced funding is brought together and used in a single pot. It would be a bit like asking "how specifically did your body use the energy from your dinner?".... and expecting a scientist to answer "well, the carrots were used for walking, the peas for respiration, and the potatoes for lifting.... so it's a good job you ate your peas as otherwise you'd have dropped down dead!"

With their record of their treatment of people with disabilities?

No i am not.

its not daft rhetoric to care about disabled people. And I am allowed to be angry at people enabling this evil government who will in all likelihood cost me my life in he end.

This is not daft rhetoric or hyperbole. Its someone scared and driven to end of rope

People calling it such are actually disgusting.

its not daft rhetoric to care about disabled people. And I am allowed to be angry at people enabling this evil government who will in all likelihood cost me my life in he end.

*This is not daft rhetoric or hyperbole. Its someone scared and driven to end of rope

People calling it such are actually disgusting.*

TheMonkey, it was me who used the words 'daft rhetoric' wrt BBCRave's posts.

I did not, at any point, say it was "daft rhetoric to care about disabled people" - she made that up.
I did not at any point say she was "not allowed to be angry at people enabling this evil government who will in all likelihood cost her her life in the end" - she made that up too.

I did address this in a post immediately after, but you obviously didn't bother to read it.

I explicitly said:

I said your angry rage at me, personally, was daft rhetoric.

So I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to me as 'disgusting' TheMonkey, thanks ever so much.

Calling her rage daft rhetoric is a disgusting thing to say.

You may not be disgusting personally, yes. Sorry..badly worded.

That view is.

Oh, and TheMonkey:
"I said your angry rage at me, personally, was daft rhetoric."
Was said by me in response to being raged at by BBCRave about things I didn't even say.

She made up a personality and attitude for me, and ran with it.

Another poster expressed sympathy for me & I tried to brush it off as just 'daft rhetoric' instead of taking personal offence.

But yeah, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Ok and noone ever accuses the left of daft rhetoric and hyperbole constantly?

Very disingenuous

You're even accusing me of "ranting" for being annoyed and calling you out.

*Ok and noone ever accuses the left of daft rhetoric and hyperbole constantly?

Very disingenuous*

I've no idea what this even has to do with another poster making up shit about me, tbh.

I am not disingenuous, I chose not to absorb another posters rage, that's all. Rage that was specifically directed towards me.

You're even accusing me of "ranting" for being annoyed and calling you out.

Wtaf?

'Calling me out' for what?

You're not even making sense now.

Thanks noble giraffe for posting Farrons voting record. He obviously voted against how he felt.

I need to do some thinking whether to put my trust in the LDs again. I quit over the coalition and I just want us to get on with Brexit now.

are the LDs better as the official opposition than the Labour Party?

Copper The point is - you said The Conservative party do not 'kill off the disabled'. This is hyperbolic nonsense.
Conversely, anti-semitism, racism & homophobia are very real things.

You clearly believe racism, antisemtitism and homophobia matter more than the disgraceful attacks on disabled and poor people. They're "real things", caring about anything else is hyperbolic.

And that was my original point to VitaminC - she didn't say "All the parties are as bad as each other", she said that she was going to vote Tory because of antisemitism/homophobia in other parties, as if the Tories disablist attitudes and scapegoating of the poor don't matter as much as those things. That is what I don't understand and think is awful - essentially, the view that some disadvantaged groups are fine to treat badly.

It's disgusting you have this "I'm alright jack" attitude to others, and baffling considering you're relying on disability benefits yourself. Some of us truly have "lost everything"; I was supposed to begin therapy to deal with trauma some years ago but it got cut. So here I am still struggling. Lucky you things got better for you - some of us found the resources we needed disappearing at every turn (and with benefits it's not just ESA - for example cuts to PIP and housing benefit (would you like to houseshare with strangers when very unwell?) and the general rhetoric that i'm worthless as unemployed and just a burden on society.)

@BBCNews

I think because racism and homophobia and anti-semitism can be words, arguably thoughts whereas killing someone requires, well, killing them. Not changing benefits or making necessary cuts to public expenditure but actually killing them. Do you understand?

If you'd said 'disablism' then you'd have been wrong, but not hyperbolic and exaggerating to try and make a point.

Bbcnewsrave I think politics in this country is a bit of a mess.

I cannot bring myself to vote Tory, I agree they have done a lot of harm in their pursuit of getting the "work shy" back to work. It's lazy policy designed to keep a certain part of the electorate sweet whilst at the same time reducing the welfare bill. And those greatly affected are the ones least able to make a stand against it. Especially as quite a lot of disabilities are hidden, and unfortunately some ignorant folk have no concept of what it's like to be wiped out with pain etc.

I say this laid up in bed ill again.

The Tories though have never really veered away from what we all know them to be. It's the fact the Labour Party is in some ways just as bad. And I am casting my mind back as to why I used to vote LD and not Labour and it was over the Iraq war. So clearly I have mistrusted Labour for some time. Oh and that I do feel that they started the ball rolling with NHS privatisation.

I feel I owe it to the women who died for my right to vote to vote. But I can't figure out who for? If we didn't have shitty FPTP I would be more confident in voting for Independents or some smaller niche party. Maybe even an NHS party (if one existed).

And there is clearly a lot of voters deserting Labour, for all different reasons.

Maybe the voters are playing it for the long game? Maybe not voting for them and handing the Tories a massive victory will force them (Labour and LD) to listen.

It's disgusting you have this "I'm alright jack" attitude to others, and baffling considering you're relying on disability benefits yourself. Some of us truly have "lost everything";

Please stop making this personal about me.

I did not attack you.

I lost my physical health (needed life saving surgery & have a lifelong condition), my mental health, my marriage, my job, my income and my house all within a 2 month period 2 years ago.
I still had my kids though, and they are the only reason that I am still here.

Competitive top trumps with regard to who has 'lost' the most is not good for anyone, and is not healthy.

I pointed out that I'd had a positive experience wrt my position under Tory rule, including an appt with the mental health crisis team yesterday - within 2 hours of contacting my GP.
I also acknowledged that my experience is my experience alone and cannot be extrapolated to 'everyone's' experience.
I also stated that it was disgusting that people had been treated badly.

I do not have an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude.

Carry on having a pop at me if you want, I couldn't care less now tbh - but stop with the blatant lies.
Thanks ever so much.

It seems right wing extremism isn't for everyone after all.

To try and imply right wing extremism is taking hold in the UK is hyperbolic, but back to france, the fact the FN have come second is cause for concern. The french have a bigger problem with right wing extremism than here in the UK and although Macron wants to reform the EU it will be interesting to see how he goes, this could merely be a can kicking exercise if some issues aren't addressed.