Elderly (so 70+) relatives who make racist remarks in general conversation ...

[Laiste]

do you personally challenge it or do you ignore?

If you've challenged, what's happened?

I think people are missing my point and are assuming that only white people have a POV. It is quite normal for people of colour (not overfond of this phrase) to describe each other and white people in terms of skin colour, it is a descriptive not a taboo.

"What is the correct way to describe someone who is white?

The fat person in the corner?
The one who picks their finger nails?
The one who sniffs all the time and doesn't use a hanky?
The person wearing the wig?
The person in the high heel shoes that makes a noise?"

Presumably you aren't actually suggesting using any of those?

"I have more than once been described as white by black people. I think it's OK isn't it?"

In what context?

My stance on this is, they'll be dead soon, so that's an ignorant generation gone.

Meh!

"My stance on this is, they'll be dead soon, so that's an ignorant generation gone"

And then there'll be no more racism! Yay!!!!!!!!

Long is of course correct that we will be dead soon. But she will then have to look for another scapegoat when ignorance refuses to die with us. Watch your backs, people.

Of course it's ok (when relevant) to describe people by their skin colour. My point is merely that "non-white" says very little about skin colour at all.

If relevant I would use the terms white, black, Asian and Indian - if I'm not sure the terms are suitable I wouldnt use them. I'd find it odd to go round the houses trying to describe someone when there was a simply and obvious way of doing so.

Honestly if I want to talk about non-white people collectively, and it's useful in respects of collective discussions about say, racism, or the intersection of racism and sexism, or provisions to balance racial equality I usually say brown people or people of colour.

It's not offensive to call someone black. I am a lot of things, and black is one of them. It's insulting to me to pretend you don't notice I'm black, because I am. There is no polite term. Saying "afro-caribbean" or "african descent" may seem polite but it's a tricky route to navigate because not all black people are caribbean, and i identify more with my caribbean descent than way back links to africa. And I CACKLE at being called african american when i have spent less than a month there in my entire life. So just say black.

And fyi there's a difference between saying "my black friend Fauch" when it's not relevant and using black as a descriptor. If i'm stood next to a white person and you use "the girl with the red coat" rather than "the black girl" to describe me i'll probably roll my eyes.

Although funny story (not really) i was walking through a department at my old work with another girl and heard some guy yell "did you SEE the tits on the BLACK one?" on the one hand the other girl was white but... still pretty distasteful. So you know, there's ways and there's ways.

Thank you Peachy and Fauchelevent - I finally feel understood

Thank you Fauch, that helps me to understand and feel a bit less tongue tied.

I ignore it or it eggs them on, especially if they're old-but-childish-and-losing-it.

My Mum is terribly racist, one reason I'm glad I don't have her on FB is that I don't have to see her British First and EDL posts. The irony of her coming back from Spain, and moaning about the foreigners getting special treatment at the Council Offices..

She was once repeating something my (also racist) SIL had said. I did say yes she is rather racist, and by inference her...and she shut up.

I feel rather sorry for the over 70's. If they are telling you that life was better for them before mass immigration then that is their truth. To them, life was better when they were surrounded by people with whom they had a lot in common. I think it's extremely disrespectful to dismiss someone's genuine experience because it doesn't fit in with the pervading politically correct rhetoric. This is their truth, your own truth is different, accept it.

I was educated during the 70's in London and there was a low ratio of non-white pupils in our school. If you were to approach those pupils now I am sure they would tell you their life experience has improved since they are no longer the odd ones out (and I was close friends with two of these pupils and so can tell that they very much felt this way). Their truth is very different to my now departed Nan's.

Mind you, I'm not so certain that my Nan was rascist as she seemed to hate everybody equally! Especially the homeless.

I think you are extremely ageist to dismiss a person's "truth" due to their age alone. Old = ignorant? Not on!

Interesting too that no-one has mentioned Citizen Khan when discussing Alf Garnett. Rascism is not a white scourge. The most rascist people I know are my middle-aged Hindu friends who hate Islam and black people with some venom. Do I call them out on it? You bet I do. We agree to disagree and we get on with it, which would be my advice to those "disgusted" by their elderly relative's views.

Incidentally, at the risk of highjacking the thread, I find that the most persecuted groups in today's society seem to be the travelling community (Romany and Irish) and Bi-sexual people, but I see no threads lambasting those who persecute them here. How very odd!

I will admit that to me, I understand totally the reasons why 'coloured' is unacceptable but I have never quite understood why 'person of colour' is so much better.

In the US, the difference is historical. During the Civil Rights Movement, there was a conscious rejection of the words used that were seen as having a connotation with segregation and Jim Crow. "Colored" was one of those words (it was actually the polite and acceptable word used for black people at one time, hence the NAACP-National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). "Colored" always only applied to black people. Black became the choice of black leaders and later African American also began to be used. Both are used in the US now, btw.

"People of color" came into use later because prior to its use, the expression "non-white" was most common, and many people did not like it because it described what people were not and suggested that whiteness is the default. "People of color" is a broader characterization than black or African American and includes other races. (In the US, race and ethnicity are separate concepts.) POC in the US is roughly equivalent to BAME in the UK. BAME would not work in the US because we are all “minority ethnic”; we tend to identify ethnicity with national origin; race is a separate concept.

Seneca thank you for the explanation. Can I ask why in the UK we frown on the term 'coloured' now, is it in line with the reason in the US? I have a friend in her 40's who insists on using it and I get quite cross with her but need to be able to tell her why. I hate not knowing. She uses the term half-caste as well and won't accept that it is never used any more - she does my head in as quite intelligent in other ways.

I challenge it, the offenders remember not to speak that way in front of me for five-ish years, then something slips out and I challenge it again - seems to be my experience.

As PP have said, coloured WAS the polite UK term until the reclamation of black which originated in the US with Black Power. The process from politically edgy US usage to polite UK parlance obviously took a while - at a rough guess I'd say maybe 15 years? Definitely by 1980 black was the preferred term in the UK, London anyway - it would have taken longer for black to be used by the older generation of the time.

I don't think half-caste has ever been polite, but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

OP here. The thread has evolved beyond my original question and it's very interesting.

On the subject of tackling close elderly family members IF they are rascist (and i'd like to emphasise that the point of the thread was never about elderly people all being racist or all rascist people being elderly - just the one's who happen to be both and in your family) i think my failing is that i've left it unchallenged for a lot of years.

I used to have stand up arguments with my father as a teenager/20 something about rascism and immigration. It was exhausting and made for a bad atmosphere. I haven't challenged my mum for years but she's getting gradually worse as she gets older. She put me in an awkward position recently. Problem as she gets worse she is also getting more frail and more easily upset and it's a tough one. I'm an only child and there's no one else to care for her or take over if we fall out.

She's 79 btw.

My parents say racist things and I used to challenge but now I just overtly shut the conversation down. They've accepted we have different views and hopefully will think twice before stating said views in public. They will be spoken to if it happens in front of DC. Although my nana used to say racist things when I was a teenager and I challenged her and she ended up agreeing with me!

If you have been in exhausting exchanges about it in the past then you are unlikely to change views at this stage in their lives sadly. I still bring my dad up sharp if he says anything, he laughs it off which incenses me but jeez what can you do.

Surely if someone from any age makes an offensive (racist, homophobic etc.) comment then you have two choices:
1, ignore
2, politely explain why you consider it offensive
And if they continue after 2 then you can either ignore or politely end the conversation. Freedom of speech on their part, freedom not to carry on the conversation on yours.
It seems fairly straight-forward to me....

If it's a vulnerable old person and they're saying offensive things in private then I'd ignore it unless it was directly impacting me (and even then I'd probably inwardly fume and outwardly smile through gritted teeth). Choose your battles. If it's not hurting someone else directly, and raising it with them would hurt them then it's better in my opinion to leave it be.

Very interesting explanation Seneca and lots of great comments inc Fauche.

As far as OP's original question - I would call anyone on it. I've walked out of various events after explaining calmly to the relevant people I didn't appreciate their "jokes" and the general guffaws. Those weren't OAPs.

I didn't need to call my parents on it - who would be in their nineties by now. They weren't racist and fought against it. But since most people who are in their 80s/90s now were growing up in the Fifties and Sixties and could have had the benefit of all the documentaries on civil rights round the world, I would call them - but perhaps more gently than I would my peers or younger.