Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

exception nicely confirming the rule

Can you explain that and its meaning in this context?

I understand its use in say "Alcohol sold between 1pm and 11pm" suggesting that is isn't sold between 11:01pm and 12:59 but have no idea what point you think you're making.

Keelin Godsey, Balin Buschbaum, Erik Schienegger, Andreas Krieger...

I don't know what your "rule" is (and think you misunderstand the 'exception proving...' line) but how many exceptions does it take to disprove a rule?

Even if its just a 'school sports day' it is still shit. And its always the girls who have to bend over.

And its always the girls who have to bend over.

Simply untrue

Keelin Godsey is a transman who competed in the womens event - not sure what that is meant to say. Can't see anything about them competing with men.

The advantage will invariably be with the MTT in professional sports.As Renee Richards (transgender professional tennis player) herself noted in 2012.

An exception that proves the rule means that if you can only come up with one example, then that confirms the original belief.

It's sort of like saying women can become president of the USA, because a whole one of them managed to run for it. Versus the 45 men (100%) who've actually been it.

But I think you know that.

So far, you've given me one example of a transgender man competing with other men.

I don't understand why you threw the other names into the mix. None of them compete with men.

So, yes, the exception proves the rule.

"If - as is the very heart of the issue - the body is wrong, then you can't suddenly decide it's the 'right' body to cheat at sports with. "

This.

Currently debating this with friends. I have been called 'right wing' 'TERF' and now we are having 'no one would transition to win at events'

And I bet no one would. But people are. I feel a bit like I'm going mad. No one wants to discuss this. No one. My husband raises an eyebrow and my friends think I'm transphobic. WTAF.

Is it because women sport is considered an 'other' category, so everyone other than men can take part?

CheesyCrust

It is a huge issue, though. Women's rights have been fought for across all arenas for decades. But suddenly if you cannot actually define the meaning of the word 'woman', legally that all goes out the window.

Culturally that all goes out out the window (none of the students in the OP are legally women). Men claiming they are the lesbians, persecuting lesbians, claiming they are transmen.

Women being told their biology is exclusionary - because 'some' women don't have a uterus.

You may feel this is a fringe element, but it's affecting legislation. It's affecting what is being taught in schools. And it's affecting what's been allowed in schools/universities.

And yes, of course it's about men. The equality issue is between men and women, not dogs and women.

The students in the OPs post should not be able to compete against girls. There is no infrastructure in place to allow that, and yet it's happening. People are already applying gender identity as a protected characteristic over sex discrimination.

So woman's right to be protected from sex discrimination is being removed. Legally only a handful of people should be able to do that, but culturally it's happening everywhere.

In terms of the law, gender identity is a meaningless term because it's entirely subjective.

These laws (and the huge cultural phenomena that has followed them) were designed to help men with gender dysphoria.

But it's now become an aspirational, cool thing to do. When you have 10 kids coming out as trans all in the same class at school, does anyone seriously think they are all suffering from gender dysphoria?

Treatment for a psychological condition has morphed into an unprecedented wholesale public perception that sex distinction is entirely irrelevant in certain circumstances. And those circumstances are not being dictated by women.

CheesyCrust Keelin Godsey, Balin Buschbaum, Erik Schienegger, Andreas Krieger...

Keelin Godsey - FTT hammer thrower, competed in female events.

Balin Buschbaum - FTT, competed as female but retired from sport to begin gender reassignment treatment.

Erik Schienegger - intersex, banned from competing as a woman in the 1968 Olympics.

Andreas Krieger - FTT, competed at World Championship level as a woman, was unknowing doped by East German officials before deciding to undergo sex reassignment.

Not sure what you are trying to prove with this...

AgathaMystery

It depends what you mean by transition. If self identification goes through, as it has in the States, transitioning will mean filling out a form. Sport is a multibillion-dollar industry. I think someone will be naive to think that's not a good motivation. Think of the erstwhile doping regimes in east Germany. The puberty blockers administered to girl gymnasts to keep them lithe.

But it's not really the point. It's not about whether someone will deliberately transition to win, it's about whether someone who has transitioned is able to compete.

Transitioning to become a woman because you have gender dysphoria is no more an acceptable reason to compete against women than someone who does it deliberately. It's all cheating.

CheesyCrust I did hesitate to post about Chris Mosier as I knew someone would invoke it in such a way.

I rather think that he proves FTT can successfully compete against men and, if anything, shows that transgender people should be competing in the Open/Male category.

However, my doubts about safety still remain. In contact sports FTT will still be shorter with less muscle mass, smaller hearts/lung capacity etc, and it may not be safe for them to compete against men. Also, I know very little about testosterone, but surely the temptation to exceed safe doses for transition purposes in order to increase performance levels must exist.

Agatha - show them Magdalen Berns' videos, Riley Dennis and Danielle Muscato.

That's what terfed the people I know.

@Dowager

But I think you know that.

No. I've only ever been aware of the logical use or legal use (such as the alcohol selling) as opposed to the entirely illogical use.

Mack Beggs is a transman who wanted to compete with men in wrestling.

I think this is all about being accepted in your new 'identity' and not about people wanting to win in sports.

@AgathaMystery

Most people don't care and many of us, when hearing this is such an encroachment on women's spaces, don't believe it is. I'm in both of those camps.

Transphobia (prejudice against transpeople) is rife on these threads but people carefully tread so they can claim innocence and say 'feel free to report my post...'. It's boring.

You said people are transitioning to win at events. Which people? Remember, you said "to" not 'and'.

@Datun

Many on this thread argue that "[women's] biology is exclusionary" i.e. vagina means you can run in the girls race - every one else with the faster, bigger, stronger men.

But it's now become an aspirational, cool thing to do.

Haha

When you have 10 kids coming out as trans all in the same class at school...

Amazing claim. Which school is that? 10 in one class?

You ignored my post earlier so I'll ask again:

So don't you dare tell women you won't listen unless they play nice.

Well, @Virgins posts were deleted so who knows; s/he may have made a good point. Are you angry at the mod who removed them?

I think you may have lost the plot suggesting that trans people (why is this all so anti-men?) won't compromise women's "sexual orientation". How can it?

What does "compromise women's language around their biological functions" mean? The word pregnancy will be "compromised"?

x-post

@BetsyM00 - I didn't notice you'd mentioned Mosier. I also said that there are safety issues in contact sports which is why in many they have weight categories or belts.

At a recent boxing event in Japan, some boxers had their licences revoked or were banned from competing or something like that because their coaches had inflated their abilities and they got their arses handed to them dangerously quickly.

"Open/Male category"

Ah, the protected class of 'women' and then 'the others'.

I've seen several posters say that it's not about winning, its about taking part and bring able to compete and inferring folk are just being unreasonsble and mean to not put the TW/TG's feelings above competeing/winning. On another similar thread on poster said she would be happy if her daughter was understanding and welcoming to a Transgirl even if it meant being beat.

If winning isn't important why can't all TW and TM (who take Testosterone) just compete in male events?

Am I the only one who finds cheesy's posts quite frightening?

There is so much sense talked above and it's as if you haven't read a single word of it.

Here's the article I quoted from earlier:

"Don’t think the rest of the world that happens to care about medal counts in the Olympics isn’t watching either.

China could make their B level male Olympians transition to women and North Korea actually would.

Kim Jong Un will just giggle as, medal after medal, he hoists the west on their own petard."

Can you imagine that in just a few short years the Olympics as we know them will no longer exist? I can, men and MTT only with not a woman in sight.

And I absolutely care about female sports at a lower level. [[http://www.courant.com/sports/high-schools/hc-hs-cromwell-track-andraya-yearwood-0407-20170406-story.html Andraya Yearwood] is to all intents and purposes a boy - no puberty blockers, no cross-sex hormones. And look at how much he won by. What would you tell your daughter if she was competing in that event? How do you think she would feel? What are we teaching young girls - that no matter how hard you work, how good you become, that a male can and will devalue that. What has that done to the self-esteem of those girls?

No. I've only ever been aware of the logical use or legal use (such as the alcohol selling) as opposed to the entirely illogical use.

Sorry if it's too complicated for you to get. I can explain it further, if needed.

I think this is all about being accepted in your new 'identity' and not about people wanting to win in sports.

Right.

Nice one.

Some nice gas lighting from a trans runner here. Apparently women who live in warmer states have the same type of advantage as MTF competitors...

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-edge-i-sure-dont/2015/04/01/ccacb1da-c68e-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.1973e47beea6

Am I the only one who finds cheesy's posts quite frightening?

Cheesy sound like an MRA

Ah, the protected class of 'women' and then 'the others'

The school with 10 trans students is St Paul's

Cheesy Crust I'm not sure what the answer is to ensure fair and safe competitions. It sure as hell doesn't work as Male and Female/Trans categories. I think Male/Open/Trans and Female would be fairer - but again still not satisfactory.

Maybe we should go back to the days when Olympic officials were trying to ensure games were completely drug-free - instead of being in the ludicrous position in which they find themselves today of trying to ensure some athletes do take drugs. Maybe transgender athletes should accept, perhaps like Balin Buschbaum, that they cannot compete at an elite level fairly, or safely.