Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

Therefore, they said, even if someone male-born does have an advantage over women, that's no different to any other inborn advantage like the height of a basketball player. I had no answer to that, other than to say that if you believe this, then women's sport is indeed dead in the water. It's back to biological relativity again.

This is such a slimy, goalpost moving argument. We as women are being played.

they should be respectful enough not to compete

So should anyone who grew up male refrain from competing as those who grew up female.

Those who win in those circumstances will never, never be anything but cheats, as far as I'm concerned. But for the very competitive, cheating is fine, as long as they win.

That's all they are. Cheaters.

It is a very slippery argument, which makes it hard to respond to. And the person who said it was actually born female.

Yes, I always like to refer to it as cheating.

Sums it up nicely.

There were some interesting comments at the bottom of that article BenadrylCucumberpatch. Not least mention of another MTT fighter Nong Toom who continued fighting males, and apparently doing so very well.

Mack Beggs, Betsy - thank you, that was definitely him. I misremembered his sport.

Untwist your knickers

It's not about who is the fastest/strongest man and why, it's about women's sport.

Certain races, nations may dominate a sport because of their musculature or because of their funding.

But even within those nations/races if men can compete against women, women's sport will die.

The nation / race argument holds no water, as it's never a foregone conclusion.

Kenyans, Jamaicans, etc can - and are - defeated by other nations and races.

Sportswomen will always be defeated by sportsmen.

There isn't even a fighting chance.

Men who compete as women are cheats.

Sport has no time for cheats. Or so I thought.

I had this debate/argument with a female friend. She insisted that once a transwoman was on female hormones there would be no innate advantage, that it made it equal. Bonkers, but she believes it.

This is so obviously nuts, that it will be noted as an important marker in the coming of Peak Trans to the world.
.

"I had this debate/argument with a female friend. She insisted that once a transwoman was on female hormones there would be no innate advantage, that it made it equal. Bonkers, but she believes it."
Oh FFS. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE HORMONES! The differences in physique are massive. Pelvic width (particularly important in running), shoulder width, femur length, lung capacity, heart size and strength. Being on female hormones makes no difference at all to those physical advantages that have already been 'banked'.

'Live and let live' doesn't apply when that living comes at a cost to someone else - especially a whole group of people who've fought and died to be ALMOST equal. Have some respect FGS.

Yes, i know , WhereYouLeftIt. But she had read that somewhere, and believes it. We just ended up in a pointless argument, where i was saying "that isn't true" and she was saying "yes it is".

The next Olympic games should be interesting. Males have to keep testosterone levels at below 10 nanomols per litre for at least a year prior to competing (which is about 4 times the level naturally found in women) in order to compete as a woman.
.
I read somewhere recently that "the Chinese probably will, and the North Koreans definitely will."

"So basically every loser who can't compete with other males, can call himself 'Suzie' and win medals from girls. How liberal and progressive "

Yep. Sums it up.

Rhonda Rousey did. She was UFC women's champion, and she refused to fight Fallon Fox.

Fox's reply to this

"I'm quite sure that there are quite a few female MMA fighters who have the guts to fight another skilled woman without peeing their panties. ... I think they may be a little more mentally tough and say, 'I'll fight a trans woman, just like I'll fight a lesbian woman or a black woman.'"

How very...male. How on earth can Fox think this is ok deep down, they must know they have advantages yet give this kind of reply when a female points out these advantages/ And wtf have lesbians or black women got to do with this...lesbians and black women are still female. Fox is male. Fox really cannot be thick enough to not see the difference here...

Fox is a baby who would unquestionably lose - and no doubt 'pee his panties' when fighting against a man.

Bottom line...

Trans people fully admit they've got the WRONG BODY.

Yes, that's right. The wrong body for how they perceive themselves. And the wrong body for competitive sports.

If - as is the very heart of the issue - the body is wrong, then you can't suddenly decide it's the 'right' body to cheat at sports with.

If you think it's wrong, then it's wrong. Not slightly right when it suits you.

Yy, TheDowager

Oh my GOD. Untwist your knickers, live and let live and at least try to be open minded. I don't know why MNHQ haven't cracked down on this transphobic behaviour.

"Untwist your knickers"? How about you examine your sexism before posting?

I've been following and participating in these threads and I think I have got it. We women are supposed to gladly receive any man who would denegrate himself so much as to ask to be considered a woman. That is why people say "but nobody would transition just to win a competion"

@AVirginLitTheCandle

Yes, I'm okay with a trans person competing in the category that suits them unless it comes down to safety like Ronda Rousey when she refused to fight. The same goes for rugby.

@hedgehog

So, in other words you don't like sports at all, so don't care about fairness in sport, the fact that this is professional sportwomen's livelihoods at stake, young women's chances of college funding down the drain, girls' chances of having role models to aspire to in a society which is increasingly sedentary with rocketing levels of obesity.

I love sports and was on track to compete at the olympics until I broke my leg. I care about sports. I don't care that a trans person wins at school sports day (that was another recent thread), I disagree with sports scholarships for college funding, I don't see how aspirational role models are being taken away and I think that sportswomen's livelihoods (sponsorship) won't be altered. It takes more than sporting achievement to make money from it. You have to be able to sell the product you're sponsored by.

@Datun

this is the biggest threat to women's rights in decades.

Yes. Definitely not Trump's executive order on abortion. I think we have different priorities.

So don't you dare tell women you won't listen unless they play nice.

Well, @Virgins posts were deleted so who knows; s/he may have made a good point. Are you angry at the mod who removed them?

I think you may have lost the plot suggesting that trans people (why is this all so anti-men?) won't compromise women's "sexual orientation". How can it?

What does "compromise women's language around their biological functions" mean? The word pregnancy will be "compromised"?

@TheDowagerCuntess

it's ALWAYS about ex-men competing with women. Never ex-women competing with men.

No it isn't. Chris Mosier

@elkegel

How is 'untwist your knickers' sexist? Should they have said 'pants'?

You didn't have a problem with @wankingMonkey saying "How very...male."

How very... female, of you!

Chris Mosier? Is that all you can come up with.

Because otherwise it's a perfect example of the exception nicely confirming the rule.