Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

University isn't primary school playtime. Groups are set up by and for a group of people. An elite women's running team is just that - for elite women runners, not for men, not for beginner's and not for people who want to play table tennis. These people are adults, if there isn't a team for them, set one up.

The idea that any team or organisations set up by and for women needs to admit men without question isn't inclusive, its ensuring women can't meet and socialise without men. Why would anyone want that to happen

If universities want to stop sex segregated groups, fine. Have a discussion about that.

But this is forcing grown adult women to pretend that they are in a women's team or group, when no such group can exist. Its bats shit crazy.

If it's just about having fun and taking part there are planty of mixed running, cycling groups. I play recreational mixed tennis and badminton. There's all the mixed classes in gyms, swimming etc.

Or you can read the glee when Fallon Fox and Caroline Layt write about competing against women in MMA snd rugby - abdolutely no thought to the women / many of whom have/had a real issue competeing against these males.

Or the ridiculous case of Gabriella Ludwig being allowed to compete in women's college basketball despite being a 50 something ex forces vet. I just don't understand how Ludwig squared that up in their mind.

Lots of people place for a bit of fun. But serious sports people will often base both secondary school and University choices purely on their sports programme/facilities.

Oh my, had wondered what had become of Fox so checked their twitter account. Not bitter and twisted at all then.

But no competing and winning isn't important (not ladylike and feminine) - it's just the taking part and being included that matters.

Lots of people place for a bit of fun. But serious sports people will often base both secondary school and University choices purely on their sports programme/facilities

Indeed. Most universities offer bursaries and other support to elite athletes to encourage them to apply to their university. Durham has just shot inself in the foot, as the best people, especially women, simply won't apply there.

Equestrian sports and darts are not the main sports that young people at school and university participate in. It's hockey, athletics, football, rugby, swimming, racket sports etc .

In all of these, being born male and going though puberty as male gives a huge advantage because you are taller, stronger and have a bigger heart lung capacity.

I really wish some top female athletes would start speaking up about this, surely they must care?

Lyndsey Sharp tried to and was vilified for it:

Women athletes can't speak out, or they may deselected by their sport.

Retired athletes can't speak out because they and their children will get threats of murder and rape.

It's not as if women have freedoms of speech in this country.

It's only affecting women. So that's that's the number of people down by half. Plus they rely on sponsorship and public approval/popularity. If anyone even hints at dissent the backlash is huge.

I'm genuinely interested to know how Durham will ensure that it does not contravene the British Universities and Colleges Sport guidance on transgender participation, which apart from using "gender" when they mean "sex", is very clear about the circumstances in which MTF and FTM can participate in the "other" sports teams. Durham might find itself unable to to compete against other universities if it doesn't comply with the requirements

I would suggest

• if possible, there should be one or 2 or a few individual changing rooms which are wheelchair accessible - and can be used also by trans people

• transpeople should be able to choose in which sort of events to compete - male or female - but have separate placings. This would mean they could compete with women if they want, but that there would be a separate special ranking to take into account the different physiology and to avoid disadvantaging every actual female not powered by testosterone in the place. So girls born as females and with female physiques would still be able to come first.

• transpeople would need therefore to be open about being trans and could be retrospectively disqualified if not

• selective testing could be considered at more junior levels of sport if there is any question about hormonal supplements (not just for trans people but for everyone).

I think this would be actually fair. So shoot me.

herecomes - that would work for things like the 10,000m, but would fall down where there needs to be heats (how do you end up with the fastest eight women plus the fastest eight transwomen all running the 100m together, when there are only eight lanes available?) or team relay races

Athletes at a relatively junior level are already drug tested, so MTT athletes would need to reveal their status in order to explain their higher levels of testosterone and not be disqualified. The IOC rules are that they have to have testosterone below a certain level for at least 12 months before competing against women

If there is different ranking, so 1st, 2nd and third place for both women and MTT, why be in the same race. Why not a different race?

And your changing room suggestions gives no privacy to women

And they don't want that. They will fight tooth and nail not to be separate

BigDesk - I imagine herecomes was thinking along the lines of some of the events in the Paralympics, where there aren't enough elite athletes with the same disability to run competitive events (it's hard to run a great time with only one or two people in the race, for example; and it would take forever to run all the events separately). So I can see the logic behind it, but I don't think it will work because I foresee the number of MTT competitors increasing in a way that the para-athletes don't need to worry about

Ahh, I think its something that I shouldn't worry my little head about

So how would that work in tennis ? Or team sports ?

Trans activists will not agree to any of your ideas. Because what they want is validation of their own feeling that they are a different sex. And for some of course they want to win against women because they can't win against men.

You make the analogy with para sport. Why don't we open that up to people who just feel disabled ? I might feel that my depression is just as disabling as your prosthetic leg. And if you don't agree it's hate speech and you deserve to die .

Funnily enough para-athletes have really strict rules on their classifications that are based on individual sports requirements and medical diagnosis. Pesky biology again...

You make the analogy with para sport. Why don't we open that up to people who just feel disabled ?

I asked this the other day to someone and apparently it was an utterly disgusting question. But I really do think its valid. There are trans-abled people about, seemingly more and more every day. They are not disabled but 'feel' it and 'want to be'. People would be absolutely up in arms if these people could compete in the paralympics. Why is it different for males who 'feel' female and 'want to be' female?

WankingMonkey

What about the ones who go the whole hog and have a limb cut off, or their spinal cord severed.

It isn't different, Wanking, to any sensible person

Datun - the difference is that someone has then actually become disabled.

I agree that someone who has lived their life as an able-bodied person and has been able to exercise and train as such but then has an accident and loses a limb (or chooses to have a limb amputated) is at an advantage to the person who was born without a limb. (And I just mean physically, although their life experiences will also have been very different indeed.)

But the paralympian categories are multiple and complex to try to create as close to a level playing field as possible, whereas all the Olympics have is separate men's and women's competitions - which is why it feels so unfair that someone is able to cross from one to the other when it has already been recognised that men have a significant advantage over women

OlennasWimple

I agree that they have become disabled. But they have become disabled through choice.

I don't think that choice is relevant in whether someone qualifies as a paralympian or not - it's about biology and whether they actually are disabled or not. Same as it's about biology whether someone is actually a man or a woman