Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

Some TW's thoughts on this.

"As a detransitioning, formerly identified MTT, I know from experience that even after a year and half on HRT, I was still a hell of a lot stronger than my female friends. Even without exercising, it's no comparison. My frame is bigger, I have more lung capacity, and even though I did lose some muscle being on T blockers, it wasn't enough to make competing against born females remotely fair. Dysphoria sucks, so I don't blame anyone for transitioning, and finding a way out of that personal hell. But PLEASE, trans women should not be competing in sports against natal females. I'm sorry, it's just wrong. A woman is not a male who's had testosterone removed. It's insulting to suggest otherwise."

As a transitioned MtF on E for... A while, I'm also still stronger than most if my female friends. Most trans women will acknowledge that trans women, especially early in transition, have an undeniable advantage over biological women.

These professional athletes are both ultra competitive and struggling with dysphoria- a volatile mix. They want to win, but know that they'll soon be in a middle ground between having an advantage over women but a disadvantage under men. What to do? I don't know. I don't think they should be competing with women but where do they go then? Back to the men's league where they won't stand a chance?

Personally, the recreational competitive sports I play I play with men's league or mixed gender because I'm not that serious about winning. But to a professional athlete, winning is everything.

Also, what about FtMs? No one seems to be talking about them. I guess the world is just in agreement that they compete with the men then, no problemo."

But to a professional athlete, winning is everything.

Well, not according to CheesyCrust, who asserts:

I think this is all about being accepted in your new 'identity' and not about people wanting to win in sports.

It's the taking part that counts in top level sports, dontcha know?!

There should probably be an inter-gender category to deal with anomalies which don't fit into male and female categories

That would solve the problem.

Except that the real problem is the demand for validation, which no compromise can ever solve

As far as I am aware the IOC rules about FTT are...nothing. There are no restrictions on them if they wish to compete in the male events.

Few do because they are unlikely to win. A 75kg male boxer competing against a 75kg FTT is not a fair fight due to all the previously mentioned male advantages. Woman + testosterone =/= male. It is generally an unfair competition, regardless of the sport (contact or not) and is unsafe for the FTT.

So don't you dare tell women you won't listen unless they play nice.

Well, @Virgins posts were deleted so who knows; s/he may have made a good point. Are you angry at the mod who removed them?

I really don't know what you're asking! You said you didn't want to engage because people are getting angry. I pointed out why they're getting angry.

This is the school.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/london-school-girl-pupils-gender-neutral-identify-male-st-pauls-public-school-a7589701.html

We've also had parents come on here saying there are more trans children in their daughter's class than non trans. It's become a fashionable way to rebel. It's like the new emo or Goth.

One parent of a lesbian said her daughter was vilified by her peers for saying she wouldn't sleep with a man identifying as a lesbian.

Guidelines endorsed by the CPS have changed the definition of lesbian from women being sexually attracted to their own sex to women being attracted to women. The subtle change in language has very unsubtle implications because men can be women. Planned parenthood talks about pregnant 'people'.

You can pick some of these things out as being ludicrous and some of them as maybe cause for concern.

But this an ideology that constantly promotes that men can be women, to the extent where actual women now have a prefix (cis) to distinguish them, even in mainstream media.

You're talking about a minuscule number of men who are managing to alter the public's perception to the detriment of women. Where is there any benefit to women in this?

And I have to say this again, this is because some men have gender dysphoria.

AskBasil but then would a MTT and a FTT competing against each other be fair? Maybe we are looking at two extra categories.

And I'm not sure this would even solve the problem, surely we would just have created a drugged Olympics - FTT would increase their testosterone to increase performance. And then what's stopping us from going the full hog, allowing performance enhancing drugs to be utilised in the male and female only categories as well.

Kind of makes a mockery of all those years trying to ensure clean Games and stamping out Eastern bloc use of doping.

@TheDowagerCuntess

I assume your username comes from being a widow as you certainly aren't dignified. Patronising and unpleasant but not dignified.

You and vestal (and his/her deleted posts) make wonderful bedfellows.

Well, not according to CheesyCrust, who asserts:

Sounds like an unimaginative line from a mediocre EE.

It's the taking part that counts in top level sports, dontcha know?!

As I said, I coulda been a contender, Charlie I had an excellent shot at the Olympics until injury forced me out of selection. We competed in mixed-sex events because it was non-contact. Sponsorship was all the better for it and it was by no means male-dominated.

@Datun

You're talking about a minuscule number of men who are managing to alter the public's perception to the detriment of women. Where is there any benefit to women in this?

Firstly, I don't think the public's perception is changing. We use the word trans in front of men or women to distinguish the difference. If you tell everyone you identify as black (for example), it doesn't change my skin colour.

Secondly, why does everything have to be beneficial to women.

Did you read that article you linked to?

The very first sentence says that it allows "pupils to use boys names and wear boys' clothes, should they wish". Tell me what's worrying about that? They say that “[The school] takes a neutral stance, neither encouraging nor discouraging”.

“We are only able to educate students who are legally and physically female” so you won't get nasty boys getting in there. Safe space is protected.

So don't you dare tell women you won't listen unless they play nice.

I was asking who you were talking to, me or the mod. I think requesting that people speak nicely before you engage is absolutely fine thing to do. You and others still responding to me and each other because we can put our very ideas across without MN deleting our posts for breaking their rules about personal attacks.

@CharlieSierra

Cheesy sound [sic] like an MRA

Isn't it funny how those who coined TERF have jumped on the negative public perception of feminists and used it to their advantage in the same way feminists have used 'man' as an insult in MRA.

@BetsyMoo

Plus intersex. It would also turn trans competitions into a freakshow. Less intelligent people would just watch to laugh at it and make cruel jokes. There isn't time in the schedule, money or public interest to ever make this happen therefore it won't.

"I assume your username comes from being a widow as you certainly aren't dignified. Patronising and unpleasant but not dignified."

loads of dignity in this!!

if you can't see that women are at real risk of having their rights and safety eroded because the greedy or the competitive or the perverted will take advantage, then women will have to shout even more loudly to overcome attitudes like this. and one day even those who couldn't see it first will either agree or have cause to be thankful.

CheesyCrust It would also turn trans competitions into a freakshow. What, like the Paralympics?

There isn't time in the schedule, money or public interest to ever make this happen therefore it won't. Then maybe transgender people should start a campaign, like disabled athletes did. I'm sure many women would be supportive.

Also wanted to point out that in your post you say, "I think requesting that people speak nicely before you engage is absolutely fine thing to do." - yet the very first line of the same post by you is "I assume your username comes from being a widow as you certainly aren't dignified. Patronising and unpleasant but not dignified."

Did you not notice your contradiction?

FFS is is not discrimination to make trans people compete in their own class any more than it is to make men or women compete in their own class.

It is discrimination to eliminate women's sports this way. It discriminates against women.

You didn't have a problem with @wankingMonkey saying "How very...male."

You don't think that quote comes across especially male? 'Peeing her panties' about fighting a male bodied person who has a large advantage, lets sneer at her eh. She should just train harder. Maybe she can train away biology.

I assume your username comes from being a widow as you certainly aren't dignified. Patronising and unpleasant but not dignified.
That's nasty, unnecessary, and irrelevant, Cheesy. Do you often like to have a jab at people over their loved ones possibly being dead?
Also, on the "exception proves the rule":
"Loose rhetorical sense:
A rural village is "always" quiet. A local farmer rents his fields to a rock festival, which disturbs the quiet. In this example, saying "the exception proves the rule" is literally incorrect, but it is used to draw attention to the rarity of the exception, and to establish the status of the village prior to the exceptional event.
The general misuse of the phrase is attributable to the ambivalence of the word 'rule'. In the original sense, 'rule' is taken as a strict rule, while in the loose rhetorical sense 'rule' is taken to mean 'rule of thumb'." -Wikipedia
This is the commonest usage of the phrase that most people will encounter.
I would like to know, Cheesy, why you think that the established rules of segregated sex sport should be changed in order to benefit a tiny subset of males, at a negative cost to many, many females?
The thing is, all it takes is one mediocre MTT athlete ruling a sport for some years, to prevent dozens of talented females from winning.

CheesyCrust

You're missing my point.

Gender dysphoria is a real crippling illness. It's the cornerstone of transgenderism. If presenting as a woman alleviates the symptoms then go for it. The sufferer is often wracked with misery and struggles socially/sexually. Eliminating their maleness helps them, and they would often rather do that than go through therapy. (Although therapy is now no longer available on the NHS.)

How can that lead to men being able to compete in women's sports?

How has that lead to 56 genders?

People are conflating normal self obsessed youngsters labelling every aspect of their personality and calling it transgender, to a serious psychological illness also called transgender.

This is leading to a social acceptance and interpretation of transgender that has nothing to do with its original premise.

If anyone can switch between being considered a man or being considered a woman, then the sex based oppression of women can't be defined.

I've seen transwomen say they are sick of women talking about oppression because all they need to do is identify as a man. Job done.

We're going backwards.

No one is analysing why sex based oppression happens in the first place. No one is analysing why it needs addressing. No one is analysing why sex based segregation is vital to women.

But they are calling it progressive!

@Applebite

I was aware of the irony even as I typed it

No, I don't think any rights or safety are being eroded. What rights are you talking about? The "Right to have Single-Sex Sports Competitions"?

women will have to shout even more loudly to overcome attitudes like this

Some women. I, for example, won't be shouting. The president of the NUS (going back to the original post) is also a woman as is the new one (changed yesterday).

You don't speak for all women. You speak for some.

@morningrunner

(Ignoring safety eg. rugby, boxing) I'm not sure. Despite my many posts on here, I generally am fairly non-plussed.

Non-segregation benefitted my sport all round as sponsorship and funding are excellent and it shows in the medal rankings.

I think that it is only sport and that is isn't the huge erosion of women's rights that many think it is. Yes, there may be an insignificant number of 'men' who compete in women's sport but you can't legislate or rule because of them. They're insignificant. Rousey (an absolute legend for reasons that would derail the thread) wasn't looked down on for turning down that fight.

Remember, professionals, by very definition, live off their income from the sport. Google 'top women surfers' or 'top women tennis players' or 'highest grossing sports men and women' or similar. Do you think it's coincidence that most of them are handsome / beautiful? I don't think a 6' 2", square shouldered MtF will make Katerina Johnson-Thompson ("one of the most marketable athletes in the world") worry about her career earnings. Her athletic success comes down to genetics and hard work but her 'livelihood' is a combination of that and her looks to make her marketable.

@WankingMonkey

You don't think that quote comes across especially male?

No, and I think it's really sexist to suggest so. Rousey is a particular favourite person of mine, but I think saying a quote is 'male sounding' is sexism.

@Scrumplestiltskin

You're reading far too much into my comment to @dowager. I hadn't ever considered her being a widow (and sorry if she is and I over-stepped the mark). The reason I hadn't considered it is she would be referring to her late-husband as a cunt.

@Datun

How has that lead to 56 genders?

Ridiculous, eh?

the sex based oppression of women can't be defined

In the majority of the world, we aren't. We don't need a definition of sex-based oppression though. We need equality. It's easy.

It's only sport! It doesn't represent a huge encroachment on women.

If its only sport, why can't we say no. Why do MTT have to be included in women's events. Why can't MTT be included in the male group, make up their own groups or just not be included?

@Bigdeskbob

If its only sport, why can't we say no.

You can and are it's just most people either don't care or actively disagree.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT SPORT, IS IT? THAT'S JUST THE MOST OBVIOUS HIGH PROFILE THING.

see, shouting.

so when some great bearded bloke wants to get changed right next to you in the changing rooms at the gym, you'll be fine with that? when you've got some hairy arse shitting in the cubicle next to you, you have no problem with that? when these things are happening to our daughters?

in these examples, genuine trans women are NOT the problem. there is IMO a distinction between someone who has actually taken the time and made the enormous decision to transition and someone like "stefonknee" or "Danielle" muscato. if you think there won't be perverts who "identify as women" to get a look at women in what should be safe spaces, that's incredibly naive.

If most people either don't care or actively disagree with sex segregated sports, why is so much sport sex segregated?

I suspect that when people say that they don't want sex segregated sports, what they really mean is that they resent money, time and effort spent on women, when it could be spent on men.

Also, what about FtMs? No one seems to be talking about them. I guess the world is just in agreement that they compete with the men then, no problemo."

I don't really see a problem with transmen competing with males tbh. Because they won't have an unfair advantage. A trans section in sports would be much fairer though. Obviously not enough trans people compete at such levels (except the female football team in Iraq I think it is, where 7/8 of the team are tranwomen..) but travelling to somewhere is an option. What should not be even slightly considered is putting males against females...even males with low T levels. Sports are sex segregated as the average female stands no chance against the average male no matter what training is involved. It is simply unfair to remove this segregation because it might hurt someones feelings. I wish I was surprised it was allowed at all, but sadly I am not.

Cheesy - you do talk nonsense as you always do on these threads. Sure you are just here to wind folk up.

And i think you are very much in the minority with your views that no one cares or thinks it's a problem. I'd put money on the vast majority of folk being against (and thinking it's completely ridiculous) TW/TG competing against females and as by the article in the OP where students can just decide on the gender they identify alone.

I do feel sorry for ftt, the only time tra remember they exist is when a 'gotcha' moment is needed.