Transgender students may not have to reveal birth sex to play sports

[Bambambini]

"Transgender students should not have to declare their birth gender when applying to university sports clubs, the National Union of Students (NUS) is expected to rule.

It adds that trans and intersex students should not be asked to disclose their legal gender or personal medical information to participate in university sport, including details regarding hormone replacement therapy.

The motion suggests that the NUS follows the lead of Durham University’s new policy on inclusivity, whereby trans and intersex students are allowed to compete and train in whichever team “best fits their gender identity”."

Whole Telegraph article here www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/24/transgender-students-should-not-have-declare-birth-gender-applying/

I really do think racing and such should be sex segregated as females won't beat males no matter how hard they train.

I am trying to think of a sport where it would be fine to not have sex segregation...and am only coming up with maybe horseriding and golf

F1? Or can women already do that?

The issue is not symmetrical - it's always women who lose out.

Women will always be at a disadvantage against transwomen, because post-pubertal boys and men will virtually always have a strength /muscle mass/ boys structure/ height advantage over women, regardless of their path along transition. There's much more to it than hormones.

And nobody is up in arms about transmen competition against men, because men still have a physiological advantage over people who have a woman's body, hormones aside.

It was an extremely flawed example but I was trying to illustrate the difference between a trans person and a pervert playing the system

Assuming you can know someone's motivations based solely on their physical appearance is incredibly naive.There's plenty of "Lucy's" in this video.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFcYTwn33A

If 'Lucy' is truly struggling through life and feels they're trapped in the wrong body then I don't care if they're in the 'wrong' changing room

Lots of people say this. I might be alone in this opinion but don't give a toss. Not my problem. I don't owe it to the Lucy's to put their feelings above my own. Plenty of people struggle in life. I'm really sick of the idea that women should spend time heaping sympathy on anyone with a sob story.

This report shows that the use of steroids has a long-term effect of at least 10 years, after they have stopped being taken. Specifically testosterone.

Can I assume that natural testosterone will have a long-term effects, even after it has been reduced artificially?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24730151

Sports that are or could be mixed sex (I think - I don't profess to be an expert):

Golf
Snooker
Darts
Bowls / variations of bowling
Curling
Diving
Equestrian events
Archery
Shooting
Driving / F1
Snow boarding
Surfing
Sailing
Climbing

Many of these are already Olympic sports, or will be in 2020

WankingMonkey The history of women's ski jumping is very interesting - see www.wsjusa.com/olympic-inclusion/

Before the Winter Games in 2010, Lindsey Van held the K95 Vancouver hill record of 105.5 meters, for both men and women. That distance would have earned her a podium spot in the men's competition in the Vancouver Games - but she was not allowed to compete.

Plenty of people struggle in life. I'm really sick of the idea that women should spend time heaping sympathy on anyone with a sob story

Indeed.

Transwomen vociferously prioritise transwomen over everyone else.

Why they should be the least bit surprised when women want to do this same, is quite incredible, when you think about it.

Transmen, on the other hand, mainly seem to want to go about their business..................

Climbing is an interesting one. (I led E1 at my best, bouldered English 6a.) It's very strength dependent, but technique and power-to-weight ratio play an enormous role. Outdoors on real rock where it's a combination of strength, technique and how far you're prepared to push yourself, yes women have arguably achieved things equal to men - Lynn Hill's first ever free ascent of El Capitan would be right up there as one of the greatest bits of climbing ever. But indoors on overhanging artificial walls where sheer strength and reach ultimately trump everything else (don't get me wrong, you need to be very good technically), I don't think this would carry through (the section on "gender" in the wikipedia article on Hill has a summary of her thoughts on it).

If I think about the two iconic British first ascents of my youth back in the 1980s, Indian Face and the Quarryman (both put up by Johnny Dawes), they are incredible technical pieces of climbing but the latter requires incredible strength - there's a point during Dawes' ascent (about 2 minutes 25 in this video where Dawes palms against the walls of an "open book" corner, cuts loose with both feet and moves them up - think male olympic gymnast move on the rings, but done simply with the friction of the palms of his hands on the two walls. (I notice that in the footage of Pearson doing it, he does it a different way though).

Golf as I understand it, again strength plays a big role in how far the initial shot (sorry, don't know the technical term) will go.

I briefly sponsored a woman racing driver and a unisex F1 isn't going to happen, OlennasWimple. Women don't have strong enough necks. F1 drivers need very strong thick necks, due to the forces exerted on them at speed. A random piece of information I've not needed until now.

The reason Britain won so many medals in the last Olympics is because money was thrown at some teams. The womens hockey team, because they stood a good chance of getting a medal, received enough funding that they could all train full time in the best facilities. If individual and teams don't stand a chance at a medal, they don't get funding. A MTT will get the funding over a women because they stand a better chance of winning, likewise if a women's team is up against a MTT dominated team they won't get funded.

It isn't about being unkind to MTT, or being exclusive for the sake of it. Its about women's sport and women careers.

Oh, I didn't refresh, and I see the discussion has moved on. . Sorry about that rant.

No, the rant is completely relevant, Bob!

Interesting info Prawn. Another instance of pesky biology, eh

Mostly - women play off different tees than men so that they drive shorter distances with their initial shot, but the middle and short game is identical. Plus the handicap system is supposed to create a level playing field so that it comes down to who plays best on the day compared to their usual standard

I can't see that men and women could compete equally in equestrian events? It's v physical and men again have the advantage of strength. The other sports I agree with, from an equally inexpert view.

But lots of women don't play snooker or darts or do climbing etc - perhaps because they are traditionally male and that is off putting to too many women? I mean, can you imagine your average snooker fans watching women playing?

Precisely the sort of dismissive attitude to women that posts like cheesy's propagate!

Cheesy is oddly dismissive (doesn't know how many times she has to tell us) ... and yet heavily invested in the topic at the same time.

Doesn't quite add up.

Applebite - equestrian events are currently mixed M and F teams

We are talking about a tiny proportion of people very few of whom will be competing at a serious level.

University sports should be about inclusion and exposing students to the opportunity to try, take part in, have a laugh at, new sports, things that they didn't do at school because school is such a vile place.

I would hope that most university students would show more compassion and inclusion for people who have faced a significant and major hurdle in their lives. Tackling whether a trans woman is able or entitled to compete at an international level can come later, and be examined at an individual level, looking at the needs of the individual and the impact of their transition on the sport.

Seriously, you all make it sound like a man, who is, for example, just that bit too slow a runner to be considered for the Olympics, would decide to undergo serious hormonal treatment and potential vilification by his peers and alienation from his family, just so that he can run as a woman and get a shiny medal!

Athrawes, No, I've read the read and that's not what posters have been making it 'sound like'.

Here's BetsyM00 quoting the British Journal of Sports Medicine, here:

"Although the psychosocial arguments in favour of allowing transsexual participation would appear to be relatively uncomplicated, there is in my opinion inadequate physiological performance related data to allow an unambiguous position to emerge. It seems clear, however, that every sports authority or governing body, indeed every athlete, will ultimately need to wrestle with these issues and answer the questions raised above. It is not hyperbole to state that the IOC took a bold step when it decided to permit the participation of transgender athletes in the Olympic Games. Experience will eventually tell us whether they made the correct decision, and whether the modern female athletic playing field will remain level. Until such time when we can reflect on that experience with perfect hindsight, we must make the best decisions we can with the information available. However, whatever is decided, we must not forget that our actions will affect the lives of the athletes involved, both transsexual and not, forever."

'Sounds like' an actual peer-reviewed scientific journal paper to me.

Applebite Equestrian events other than racing are mixed as they dont rely on strength. Its about skill.

Racing is a different discipline, and men make better jockeys. They have two physical advantages; their muscles are stronger, so they can keep their weight down and still compete. And their muscles hold more oxygen. Its hard to get a full lungful of air in the cramped racing position.

Athrawes But that is exactly whats been happening. Its only girls that are told to be more inclusive and good losers. And they are dropping out of sports as a result, which I'm sure is the desired result.

Athrawes - you're right that for many people university sports is just a bit of fun.

For some people, however, there are very real risks in playing in what are in effect mixed teams - would you really want to play university rugby against a man?

Some people use university sports as a stepping stone to a professional career, including taking paid posts during a year out at university. Should women be discriminated against and prevented from accessing these opportunities?

In the US, college sports is absolutely the route to the professional game (I'm currently sat watching the NFL draft - they are all being selected from top universities). Whilst sports scholarships make a higher level university education accessible for very many individuals who would otherwise never be able to afford this. Should they be denied these absolute life-changing opportunities because they are no longer the top in their field at 16/17, but pushed down the rankings by men?

University sports should be about inclusion and exposing students to the opportunity to try, take part in, have a laugh at, new sports, things that they didn't do at school because school is such a vile place

Rubbish, the path to a career in elite sport begins way before University. I was at University with two Olympians.

Athrawes sports isn't just about 'having a laugh' at any level. It's about competing, having a chance of winning, setting records, representing the school or club, etc. Why should girls and women be expected to give up on those things just to be inclusive and 'nice' to boys and men.