To not understand all of this Corbyn hate

[clevername]

Disclaimer – I consider myself to be an intelligent and thoughtful person but also very uninformed and ignorant of political (and other) current affairs. Largely through my own choosing – I have virtually no faith in politicians and politics at all. I realised a very long time ago that the whole thing was an elaborate farce. I’ve always spoilt my ballot until Nick Clegg won me over and then proved, unequivocally, that I was right to not trust them. I vowed never to vote again but I’m feeling stirred to this time around and have therefore been looking into it more and trying to sift through the inevitable bullshit…

So – what is so bad about Corbyn? From what I understand (do remember my disclaimer and how uninformed I am!), the main people in the Labour party hate him because he is ‘unelectable’. So they’ve wanted him out for a long time but he has refused to go, on account of the fact he has been democratically chosen by the party members to be the leader. This annoys and frustrates them and they therefore blame him for creating an enormous and damaging rift in the party. But, surely, the fact that he has been elected as leader is testament to his popularity with Labour voters? And isn’t it a good thing that he stands his ground? Especially against the kind of people who would rather have someone like Ed Milliband (or his ilk – I don’t know any ‘current’ names) as party leader? Doesn’t it show that he is principled and ‘different’ from the political norm? Isn’t this something that we need?

And what does it matter if the Labour party are in shambles (a common reason I hear for not wanting to vote for them this time)? Surely that’s because of all of the ‘unelectable’ stuff above. But if he were to be elected, I’m guessing those problems would evaporate. Because he would have been elected. And anyway, aren’t political parties often shambolic? Wasn’t May’s drastic cabinet overhaul and sackings at the beginning of her reign (not to mention the Boris/Gove thing in the leadership contest) a clear sign of an ununited, shambolic party?

I realise Corbyn isn’t to everyone’s tastes politically but if you’re left leaning and want to try and get rid of the Tories, surely he’s not such a bad bet?

I’m sorry if this is making me come across as stupid but I genuinely want to know why some people (especially those who would normally consider themselves left-wing or Labour voters) dislike him so much.

Wait, what? Labour was pretty much in the lead poll wise before the blairite side of the PLP

Which is still bad as opposition parties are always in the lead to the government party.

I'm Labour through and through but wont vote for Corbyn are kind of missing the point a little bit or that they became involved with the party post kinnock or early blair, for some of us we cheered him on because we rather labour was in (even tho some/a lot of his choices werent really the best) than have a tory government but still hoped that there was a chance that things would only get better grin (hate that bloody song lol)

No not missing the point. As I have said my family and friends can't and won't vote Labour whilst he is there.

The Ken Livingston debacle ia a case in point.

As I said earlier, Lib Dems got rid of David Ward for anti semitism within 24hrs. Tories got rid of Isle if Wight candidate in 24hrs yet Ken is still going... What type of message do you think that sends out?

I think Labour have (sadly) been trailing in the polls for quite some time.

... What type of message do you think that sends out?

It sends the message that JC either doesn't care very much about anti - semitism or isn't in control of his party. Neither of which inspires confidence. And then there's the good old fashioned sexism. Bullying of female MPs. Again, not addressed and swept under the carpet.

I know they play lip service to these things but they aren't properly addressed.

Completely agree flippinada

Ken is still going

Isn't it true that the disciplinary process is still continuing? He may well be expelled.

That is so Make, but it has been a story for years - for all the wrong reasons. I am ashamed.

Isn't it true that the disciplinary process is still continuing? He may well be expelled.

Only because he keeps repeating what he said! He should have been expelled the first time.

Hi. Op back again to ask more naive (possibly stupid) questions and make some more politically ignorant statements...

I'm still not sure I understand this 'unelectable' thing I'm afraid. I'm seriously considering voting labour for the first time in a very long time, after a period of total political disillusionment. I can't be the only one... It does sound like a highly pervasive soundbite that has gone viral and is of enormous benefit to anyone that opposes Corbyn.

And is it really the case that a Labour party has to be central (and quasi Tory) to even get a sniff of power? Isn't the whole political climate in these weird and uncertain times eminently unpredictable? Why are we following tried and tested paths of political understanding when clearly everything is up in the air?

And why isn't Corbyn the one to deliver the fairer society he seems to be promising? He might not have acted the way a normal politician would have over the last couple of years but is that really such a bad thing?! A lot of the criticisms that are levelled at him seem to be the kind of thing that other politicians can get away with (career politician, hangs out in Islington etc).

And is his peaceful approach to foreign policy really that worrying and laughable? Anything else we've tried has done fuck all to minimise Isis etc... Maybe talking and listening isn't such a loony alternative approach. I understand that this is the kind of thing that doesn't win votes because people are scared. But I admire his principles here - he is not shamelessly pandering to this fear in order to win votes. He is sticking to his guns (pardon the pun) and I like that. Again, I can't be the only one.

And I also really don't get the whole 'I've been a lifelong Labour supporter but I'm seriously considering voting Tory' thing (as a couple of people have stated earlier). Really? As some kind of punishment to Corbyn? How on earth can they be seen as the better option? I honestly don't get it. Is everyone just falling for May's 'strong' and 'stable' brainwashing? Surely if you're a Labour supporter and have Labour ideals this Tory government is not for you? Surely you should stop whingeing about how cross you are that Corbyn hasn't stood down to let someone more acceptable to the PLP (see - I have learnt something on this thread!) be leader and get behind him a bit. Bashing him probably isn't going to help the Labour party in this election and surely they are a better bet (even under Corbyn) than this horrible Tory lot.

Sorry if I'm coming across as snarky (I'm pregnant and tired)... Promise I've read everything you've all read but remember my initial disclaimer... I genuinely don't believe almost a word of all this political bollocks and haven't for a long time... I see it as an enormous load of spin/propaganda/vote winning/brain washing. And yet I feel compelled to vote this time and I feel drawn to Corbyn and his Labour party. It's not so much that I believe in them, it's more that I disbelieve them less than the others.

No worries, you have coming across as a Corbyn supporter only!

That's fine but please be assured that those who will never vote for him are not necessarily victims of a viral soundbite. I was a close up observer of the shenanigans of the far left in the 80s. Corbyn and McDonnell themselves have been around for a while and have a back catalogue as it were.

Hi OP, I am pleased you are considering voting Labour. You are not the only one - loads of people have joined Labour since he was elected - but in Richmond, the Labour vote was apparently smaller than the local party membership. It is nowhere near enough, no. Look at the map of the seats that need to be one and the numbers needed to do it.

To answer just the unelectable point - because the polls are appalling, disastrous, catastrophic, judged by pretty well every available measure. It is hard to say how bad it will be as opposition parties never normally do this badly for months and years on end so there is little to compare it with. If anything, polls usually overestimate Labour. And yes

No, everything isn't up for grabs - the pre-referendum polls were pretty evenly split and close; and from memory the US polls showed Trump closing and a tight result was predicted - I was very worried in the weeks before the election and I wasn't following it that closely.

I wouldn't be posting here if I thought the Labour party being split was news to anyone - it has been headlines for months. We have to have discussions if there is to be a future for the party.

If you have read the thread, you will know the real substantive criticisms on the other stuff - brexit, his "principles" (as a backbencher, talking and listening is very different from what eg JM and TB did with the IRA) etc etc etc. You don't sound snarky, don't worry.

Surely you should stop whingeing about how cross you are that Corbyn hasn't stood down to let someone more acceptable to the PLP (see - I have learnt something on this thread!) be leader and get behind him a bit.

Many on this thread and in RL have very genuine reasons for not 'getting behind him'. I have stated mine a few times. It certainly isn't whinging. To call it that is extremly unfair. Could you really expect someone like me to just get behind him? For me and many many others it is a step to far.

And is it really the case that a Labour party has to be central (and quasi Tory) to even get a sniff of power?

Yes it is true that more central parties get power.

Adding a caveat - I am pleased that the tories seem to have had a pretty awful start to the campaign and Labour has managed to announce some policies without them immediately unravelling- so I am hoping if this carries on, it won't be quite as bad as I fear.

Thank you.. This is why I love this place. It's so good to be able to have a conversation with so many other people, and for those people to listen to what you're saying but also help you to learn and understand.

And I'm sorry about the 'whingeing' comment, Piglet, that was the snarkiness I was talking about. I've eaten my dinner now so feeling a bit remorseful about that!

I have read the thread, and I'm not ignoring all of your points... I just can't shake my feelings (started in my previous post... Minus the hangry bits!)

Stated, not started

Unfortunately Lalsy They are unravelling a bit.

Ian Lavery had an awful car crash interview on Daily Politics today and John McDonell came unstuck when it comes to costings on Preston.

Announcing policies is fine and good however you have to know how much they are going to cost and how you will pay for them. If you don't it plays straight into the 'can't trust Labour with the economy' and the 'magic money tree' lines.

The Tories aren't up and running yet no, but official campaigning doesn't start until next week.

I think this GE is going to be unlike previous ones. It won't be Tory v Labour but May v Corbyn.

What makes me sad is there are some very good, talented MPs that we will be losing in this Election because of him. Wes Streeting, Tulip Saddiq, Ruth Cadbury, Mary Creagh, John Woodcock will probably lose. Tom Blenkinsop is openly not standing again because of Corbyn and his team. Michael Dugher has also won't stand and his thoughts on the leadership are well documented. So sad.

And I'm sorry about the 'whingeing' comment

No need to be sorry I am probably being defensive as in the past week I have been called a traitor, red Tory, selfish, stupid amongst others, as for the first time ever I won't vote Labour.

I have had my dinner too now .

OK, Piglet - have had a lovely weekend away from the news.

Political leanings are not polarised but more of a spectrum.
When you think of a bell curve more people tend to be in the middle hence the need for labour to occupy a central space.

Thank you Lalsy going to try.

Perhaps it is just hard sometimes to accept change. the party is moving forward.

Oh Make, you do make me laugh, sorry. Moving forward to...how many seats do you reckon? You do know what the Labour Party defines itself as being for don't you?

Moving forward? Only if you are facing backwards!
It's like the 1980s no thanks!

Perhaps it is just hard sometimes to accept change. the party is moving forward.

No it isn't it's moving backwards at great pace.

John McDonall this morning talked about giving Unions a huge amount of powers back! It's like the 1980s all over again.

Moving forward

Oh ok so the history of political process has changed losing voters is now a good way to get into power

I'm glad that has been cleared up

One of my favourite bits of Corbyn uselessness is that he insist on taking Mondays offing TOIL if he has a political interview on a Sunday (e.g. with Marr)

Up the revolution - as long as I don't have to work too hard that is

John McDonall this morning talked about giving Unions a huge amount of powers back! It's like the 1980s all over again.

Yeah youre right piglet, fuck those unions, who needs collective bargaining power for workers rights, I mean bosses always put their workers first especially before profits