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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand all of this Corbyn hate

491 replies

clevername · 25/04/2017 22:23

Disclaimer – I consider myself to be an intelligent and thoughtful person but also very uninformed and ignorant of political (and other) current affairs. Largely through my own choosing – I have virtually no faith in politicians and politics at all. I realised a very long time ago that the whole thing was an elaborate farce. I’ve always spoilt my ballot until Nick Clegg won me over and then proved, unequivocally, that I was right to not trust them. I vowed never to vote again but I’m feeling stirred to this time around and have therefore been looking into it more and trying to sift through the inevitable bullshit…

So – what is so bad about Corbyn? From what I understand (do remember my disclaimer and how uninformed I am!), the main people in the Labour party hate him because he is ‘unelectable’. So they’ve wanted him out for a long time but he has refused to go, on account of the fact he has been democratically chosen by the party members to be the leader. This annoys and frustrates them and they therefore blame him for creating an enormous and damaging rift in the party. But, surely, the fact that he has been elected as leader is testament to his popularity with Labour voters? And isn’t it a good thing that he stands his ground? Especially against the kind of people who would rather have someone like Ed Milliband (or his ilk – I don’t know any ‘current’ names) as party leader? Doesn’t it show that he is principled and ‘different’ from the political norm? Isn’t this something that we need?

And what does it matter if the Labour party are in shambles (a common reason I hear for not wanting to vote for them this time)? Surely that’s because of all of the ‘unelectable’ stuff above. But if he were to be elected, I’m guessing those problems would evaporate. Because he would have been elected. And anyway, aren’t political parties often shambolic? Wasn’t May’s drastic cabinet overhaul and sackings at the beginning of her reign (not to mention the Boris/Gove thing in the leadership contest) a clear sign of an ununited, shambolic party?

I realise Corbyn isn’t to everyone’s tastes politically but if you’re left leaning and want to try and get rid of the Tories, surely he’s not such a bad bet?

I’m sorry if this is making me come across as stupid but I genuinely want to know why some people (especially those who would normally consider themselves left-wing or Labour voters) dislike him so much.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Batgirlspants · 26/04/2017 09:07

What polly says.

As for you op or is it Dianne shouldn't you be campaigning Wink

A4Document · 26/04/2017 09:42

20% tax on private school fees? Yes, some would no longer be able to afford fees so they are then back in the state system. But wouldn't the tax raised then go to state education?

Higher corporation tax - fine for large companies with fat cat shareholders, not so good for the small family business, so it should be tiered/means tested.

Valentine I don't think the manifestos have been published yet?

FrenchLavender · 26/04/2017 09:49

I don't think anyone hates him, do they? Hate is a strong word and it's mostly reserved for Tony Blair and Diane Abbott.

We just think he's ill equipped to govern the country and will bring it economically to its knees, like all Labour governments eventually do, but I suspect he might do it a bit faster than others.

Apart from that he seems like a nice enough bloke.

donajimena · 26/04/2017 09:50

He's lost my vote over the raising of the minimum wage. I'm a very small business. I would have to wind it up. Stupid stupid man.

JustifiedAncientofMooMoo · 26/04/2017 09:53

Sinn Fein / IRA.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 26/04/2017 10:01

Not quite hate

Despise is a better word and I blame him for Labour being such a poor opposition and will blame him and his supporters for the loses we shall see in the upcoming general election

teawamutu · 26/04/2017 10:22

I always wonder if these wide eyed and innocent ops are Momentum trying to be subtle...

clevername · 26/04/2017 10:59

Ha ha, I can assure you I'm not anyone in disguise... my ignorance is 100% genuine! And I've got no agenda other than trying to understand all of this a little bit more.

Thanks for all of your replies - I've definitely got a fuller picture of the whole thing and it clearly isn't quite as simple as I was assuming.

But... I can't help but be a bit drawn to him above the others (maybe this is because of my deep-seated distrust of literally all politicians and the whole system and he seems different somehow). And the occasional comments in the other thread that a pp pointed me towards (thanks for this, by the way) about him being subject to a relentless smear campaign made my ears prick up a bit.

Anyway, clearly I need to do some serious reading so I can somehow make my mind up about him. And if I do reach the same conclusions as most of you seem to have, what do I do then? I want the Tories out (as unlikely as that might be) and don't think I could bring myself to vote Lib Dem after the last time (yuck... sell outs). So it's either labour or a tactical vote. Or I could of course go back to my default setting of political disillusionment and spoil my ballot as usual!

OP posts:
oklumberjack · 26/04/2017 11:12

If you distrust all politicians then I don't really get why you're attracted to Corbyn. People think he's something 'new', however he's been a politician all his life, in a safe seat with a nice lifestyle. All his life he's spent trying to disrupt and vote against his own party.

His latest 'It's a rigged system!", shouts of us versus 'the establishment' and "this (democratic) election is anti-democratic" ......is just crazy.

When I was student I thought that money grew on trees. That somehow 'the government' had their own money and it was mountains of cash. They were all bastards for not giving money to everyone that needed it whenever they needed it, and more. Then I grew up a bit and found out that it's not quite as simple.

I feel like Corbyn is still stuck in that way of thinking.

GaelicSiog · 26/04/2017 11:16

He's unelectable. On paper he looks great, but his politics are grossly out of touch with reality.

It's like communism. Lovely idea in theory, but just doesn't work in practice.

birdsdestiny · 26/04/2017 11:22

French, I think loathe is the right word for those of us who have been involved with the Labour party for a long time. The Labour party has been important to me for over 20 years and he has destroyed it.

LumelaMme · 26/04/2017 11:26

about him being subject to a relentless smear campaign
Yeah, sure. Just watch him at PMQs, or consider his reaction to allegations of anti-semitism within Labour, or his response to any question involving defence, and so and and so forth.

It's not a smear campaign when he under performs at PMQs week after week. It's not a smear campaign when a leading member of Labour comes out with Jewish conspiracy bullshit, and the leader of the party doesn't come down on him like a ton of bricks. It's not a smear campaign when Corbyn is asked a questions and comes out with an answer that is then broadcast in full and which has the viewer holding her head in her hands.

Corbyn has been condemned by his own actions (and inactions). As someone said on the other Corbyn thread, I wouldn't trust him to book me a taxi.

Noofly · 26/04/2017 11:29

I'm as Tory as they come and I'm incredibly annoyed by him because I actually do want a strong opposition and I don't actually want another 10+ years of Tory governments. I think it works better when there is a change of government even if it's not the one I want in! Under Corbyn, Labour seem more and more irrelevant by the day and that annoys me (despite being a Tory!).

chilipepper20 · 26/04/2017 11:34

He's lost my vote over the raising of the minimum wage. I'm a very small business. I would have to wind it up. Stupid stupid man.

you must just be some capitalist fatcat standing on the shoulders of the prols.

Nobody hates Corbyn. He's just in Lala land. Like raising taxes on businesses in this climate. The one major problem with Corbyn is that he is killing the only credible option to the Conservatives.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/04/2017 11:36

For those wanting to see policy

A London School of Economics study into how Jeremy Corbyn is represented in the media found that only a paltry 11% of all newspaper articles about him bothered to accurately state a single one of his actual policies. In the hard-wing Daily Mail and Express that figure was 0%.

Given this lack of unbiased political coverage it's not difficult to understand why so many people are so unfamiliar with Jeremy Corbyn's actual policies, and tend to judge him as if politics is some kind of vapid personality contest.

So here are some of the Jeremy Corbyn policies that the mainstream media really don't want to tell you about, so you can judge for yourself whether you like them or not.
Labour Party policies

Ban companies based in tax havens bidding for government contracts
It's astounding that this isn't the case already. How on earth could anyone even attempt to justify taxpayers' cash being paid to companies based in tax havens for the purpose of dodging tax?

£10 minimum wage for all workers over the age of 18
The UK is the only country in the developed world where workers' wages are declining in real terms, while the economy is actually growing. A £10 minimum wage would help to reverse this scenario, and it would also significantly reduce the cost of in-work benefits like tax credits and housing benefit (most of which goes to working families these days).

All rented accommodation to be fit for human habitation
Again, astounding that this isn't the case already, but in January 2016 the Tories (over 1/3 of whom are landlords) deliberately voted down a Labour Party amendment to their housing bill to ensure that all rented accommodation is fit for human habitation.

Renationalise the railways
This is a very popular policy that is supported by an overwhelming majority of the public. Do you support rail renationalisation too, or are you one of the minority who think that the current shambles is acceptable?

Renationalise the NHS
The Tory party have been carving up the English NHS and distributing the pieces to the private sector, Jeremy Corbyn has pledged to reverse this process. Are you one of the 84% of people who thinks the NHS should be run as a not for profit public service, or the 7% who agree with the ongoing Tory privatisation agenda?

Free school meals
The policy of providing free school meals to all school children between the ages of 4 and 11 is based on evidence based research showing that universal free school meals lead to significantly improved grades. It will be paid for by ending the generous tax breaks (public subsidies) for the 7% of kids who go to private fee-paying schools.

Create a National Education Service
Jeremy Corbyn believes that education is a right, not a commodity. He wants to create an integrated National Education Service to ensure that education is freely available to anyone who needs it.

Scrap tuition fees
Thanks to the Tories (and their Lib-Dem enablers) UK students now face the most expensive tuition fees in the industrialised world for study at public universities, meaning students typically leave university with £50,000 of debt, and two thirds of them will never pay off their student debts. Labour would end this lunacy by getting rid of student fees.

Restore NHS Bursaries
One of the first things Theresa My did when she came to power was to scrap NHS bursaries for nurses and other NHS workers. This removal of financial support for nurses has caused a huge 10,000 decline in the number of applicants to nursing courses. This collapse in nursing recruitment would be bad enough in its own right, but in combination with a record increase in the number of EU nurses quitting the NHS and a mind-boggling 92% fall in nursing recruitment from EU countries, the UK is clearly facing a massive NHS recruitment crisis. Labour would reverse this calamitous state of affairs by restoring NHS Bursaries for trainee nurses.

Increase the carers allowance
Labour are proposing to increase the Carers Allowance for the 1 million unpaid carers in the UK. This would be paid for by scrapping the Tories' Inheritance Tax cut for millionaires. Unpaid carers save the UK economy an estimated £132 million a year, and they're doing ever more work as a result of the £4.6 billion in Tory cuts to the social care budget.

Create a National Investment Bank
This is actually one of Jeremy Corbyn's best policies, but few people actually understand it. It's absolutely clear that allowing private banks to determine where money is invested ends up in huge speculative bubbles in housing and financial derivatives, while the real economy is starved of cash. A National Investment Bank would work by investing in things like infrastructure, services, businesses and regional development projects, and would end up becoming a kind of sovereign wealth fund for the UK.

End the public sector pay freeze
Under Tory rule UK workers suffered the longest sustained decline in real wages since records began. The public sector pay freeze contributed massively to this. You'd have to be economically illiterate to imagine that repressing public sector wages with below inflation pay rises for year after year would not exert downwards pressure on private sector wages too. Ending the public sector pay freeze would actually boost the economy by putting more money in people's pockets, meaning an increase in aggregate demand.

End sweetheart tax deals between HMRC and massive corporations
David Cameron (the son of a tax-dodger) repeatedly lied through his teeth about how serious he was about confronting tax-dodging, whilst allowing HMRC to concoct sweetheart deals with corporations like Google, Vodafone and Starbucks. One of the main reasons the corporate press are so strongly opposed to Jeremy Corbyn is that they know that unlike David Cameron, he's serious when he talks about clamping down on tax-dodging.

Stop major corporations ripping off their suppliers
Major corporations are withholding an astounding £26 billion through late payment, which is responsible for an estimated 50,000 small businesses going bust every year. The scale of this problem is so massive that it should be a national scandal, and Jeremy Corbyn is absolutely right to align himself with small businesses to defend their interests.

Reverse the Tory corporation tax cuts
Since 2010 the Tories have cut the rate of corporation tax for major multinational corporations from 28% to just 17% (by 2020) meaning the UK has one of the lowest corporation tax rates in the developed world. The global average is 27% and the G7 average is 32.3%. Theresa May has already threatened to lower the corporation tax even further to turn post-brexit Britiain into a tax haven economy, Corbyn is proposing to do the opposite and increase corporation tax rates so they're more in line with the rest of the developed world.

Defend Human Rights
Theresa May has repeatedly expressed her intention to tear up Winston Churchill's finest legacy, the European Convention on Human Rights. Labour would oppose this Tory attack on our human rights.

Zero Hours Contracts ban
Almost a million UK workers are now on exploitative Zero Hours Contracts. Last year the New Zealand parliament voted to ban them, and Labour is proposing to do the same. Long-term employees and workers doing regular hours would be protected from Zero Hours Contract exploitation.

Holding the Tories to account over Brexit
Labour have said that they won't block Brexit, but they will seek to hold the Tories to account over it. A landslide Tory victory would be a disaster for the UK because it would allow Theresa May to pursue the most right-wing pro-corporate anti-worker Brexit possible with almost no democratic scrutiny. The only way to make sure the Tories don't push a fanatically right-wing Brexit on the nation is to ensure that there are plenty of opposition MPs to hold them to account.

Housebuilding
Under the Tory government the level of UK housebuilding has slumped to the lowest levels since the 1920s, even though demand for housing is extremely high. Labour are guaranteeing to invest in a programme of housebuilding, and committing to ensure that half of the new houses are social housing. This wouldn't just alleviate the housing crisis, it would also stimulate the economy by increasing aggregate demand.

Combat inequality
George Osborne's ideological austerity agenda resulted in the longest sustained decline in workers' wages since records began and condemned an additional 400,000 children to growing up in poverty, meanwhile the tiny super-rich majority literally doubled their wealth. Labour is pledging to reduce the inequality gap and introduce progressive policies to reduce the gap between the incomes of the highest and lowest paid. There is plenty of evidence to show that the least unequal societies are more economically successful places where the people are happier.
Conclusion

So out of these 20 Labour Party policies, how many do you actually strongly disagree with?

Footnote

This article attracted rather a lot more interest than I'd imagined (well over 1 million hits in 3 days!). One of the big questions people have been asking is how all of this would be paid for.

The answer is that quite a lot of the policies are actually investments that would pay for themselves in the long-term because they would stimulate more economic activity than the investment cost (see my articles on fiscal multiplication and the marginal propensity to consume to get a better idea of how). Other policies could easily be funded if we had a government that was actually serious about cracking down on tax-dodging, which costs the country vast amounts per year. Just ending sweetheart deals between HMRC and major multinationals would generate £billions, which would pay for stuff like restoring the NHS bursary many times over.

If anyone is genuinely worried about how stuff is going to be paid for, the first thing on their mind should of course be the impending threat of a "no deal" Tory strop away from the Brexit negotiating table that Theresa May has made the centrepiece of her so-called "negotiating strategy". If that happens the IFS have estimated a 6.3% -9.5% collapse in GDP, which would be a much more significant economic meltdown than the one that was caused by the 2007-08 global financial sector insolvency crisis (that our economy and our wages have still nowhere near recovered from). What do you think would happen to the tax take and the budget deficit if the economy tanked even worse than it did in 2009 thanks to Theresa May's alarmingly woeful threat-based Brexit negotiation strategy resulting in the chaos of an economically ruinous cliff edge Brexit?

SeaWitchly · 26/04/2017 12:20

I will be voting for Jeremy Corbyn and Labour for all the reasons [policies] you have outlined JustAnotherPoster

Tobolsk · 26/04/2017 12:23

Valentine2

His policies are expensive to enforce. I expect they would cost more than they would recover in tax.

In a capitalist Western world taxing companies and raising NMW you are taking away the ability of some companies to compete at either a global or national level.

For instance I am self employed I have more work than I can deal with. I need to employ someone to help. It's a unskilled job all I can offer for pay at the moment is profit share. If had to pay £10hr I couldn't afford to employ someone.

NHS is tough, with both a increasing and aging population it is going to become increasingly more expensive to run. Also it will need to expand to allow it to effectively treat the larger population. The question becomes at what point does the NHS become too expensive?

From a personal perspective I want less government evolvement in my life.

eddiemairswife · 26/04/2017 12:32

He doesn't fit into the 'Westminster Bubble', which is why so many of the London based journalists were against him from the beginning. Also there is a core of Blair-loving Labour MPs who refuse to accept him as their leader.

judychicago · 26/04/2017 12:35

I don't get the hate either, hes the best prospect we have had in decades. I do think there is a problem with the PLP not getting behind him, and in sme cases actively working against him but if he wins and they do unite it would be a huge boon for the UK.

judychicago · 26/04/2017 12:41

To the previous poster implying Corbyns polices are communist get a grip, think for yourself for a change and stop swallowing what the press feed you hook line and sinker. His polices are perfectly sane and reasonable it is only through corrupt lens of neocon liberalism does it seem crazy.

Look up the Overton
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

LadyDeadpool · 26/04/2017 12:44

Op if you spend an hour on the UK subreddits of Reddit you will see a whole lot of Corbyn love and discussion of his policies you also won't be accused of being a troll for wanting to discuss him.

Obsidian77 · 26/04/2017 12:52

For me he lacks clarity on just about everything and routinely flubs opportunities to take the government to task.
What are his policies on Syria? Or Brexit? Or Trident?
If you can't call these to mind quickly and in simple terms, why not?
Perhaps I'm being too cynical but how many of the "party members" who voted for him were bona fide party members and how many were opposition supporters who were able to make Labour unelectable for £3?

FireSquirrel · 26/04/2017 12:58

Whether you like Corbyn or not, it's pretty blinkered to deny the media bias against him. A study by the London School of Economics found that over 75% of media articles about Corbyn didn't portray his views accurately. Among more right wing papers like the Daily Mail that figure fell to 0%. Not a single one of their articles portayed his views accurately. The BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, was found to have breached impartiality guidelines in a report she did on Corbyn’s views on the shoot to kill policy. To disagree with his politics is fine but to deny the blatant bias against him is ridiculous.

FireSquirrel · 26/04/2017 13:04

He's repeatedly said he doesn't condone the violence by the IRA but that there needed to be an open dialogue in order to effect a peace process. Thatcher negotiated with the IRA too, she just did it in secret.

Quote from an article asking Corbyn about his views on the IRA:

'Mr Corbyn has faced strong criticism for bringing members of the IRA to the House of Commons during the 1980s.

But he told the programme everyone he met had been former prisoners who had completed their sentences and the goal had been to open dialogue and reach a political solution.

Mr Corbyn said: "Yes, I did make myself very unpopular with some people by a preparedness to reach out to the Republican tradition in Ireland, to say ultimately this war is unwinnable by either side, there is never going to be a military (answer) - therefore there has to be a political dialogue.

At the same time, secretly, the British government was also engaged in that and then eventually in 1994 we got the first ceasefire."

Asked if he was less critical of IRA violence than British military action, Mr Corbyn said: "The violence was wrong on all sides and I have said so all along. My whole point was if we are to bring about a peace process, you weren't going to achieve it by military means." '

Source: m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/jeremy-corbyn-defends-stance-on-ira-31561663.html

DorisMcSweeney · 26/04/2017 13:04

This country needs a strong opposition to counteract the swivel eyes loons on the Tory right who are intent on driving the Brexit bus off the cliff. Unfortunately Labour under Corbyn are an absolute shambles. The majority of the parliamentary party don't want him as leader, policies seemingly made up as they go along, and the thinking that it is more important to be ideologically sound than to actually win an election.

My worry is that Labour will lose big, and Corbyn will refuse to step down, leading to many years (decades??) of Tory government

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