To not understand all of this Corbyn hate

[clevername]

Disclaimer – I consider myself to be an intelligent and thoughtful person but also very uninformed and ignorant of political (and other) current affairs. Largely through my own choosing – I have virtually no faith in politicians and politics at all. I realised a very long time ago that the whole thing was an elaborate farce. I’ve always spoilt my ballot until Nick Clegg won me over and then proved, unequivocally, that I was right to not trust them. I vowed never to vote again but I’m feeling stirred to this time around and have therefore been looking into it more and trying to sift through the inevitable bullshit…

So – what is so bad about Corbyn? From what I understand (do remember my disclaimer and how uninformed I am!), the main people in the Labour party hate him because he is ‘unelectable’. So they’ve wanted him out for a long time but he has refused to go, on account of the fact he has been democratically chosen by the party members to be the leader. This annoys and frustrates them and they therefore blame him for creating an enormous and damaging rift in the party. But, surely, the fact that he has been elected as leader is testament to his popularity with Labour voters? And isn’t it a good thing that he stands his ground? Especially against the kind of people who would rather have someone like Ed Milliband (or his ilk – I don’t know any ‘current’ names) as party leader? Doesn’t it show that he is principled and ‘different’ from the political norm? Isn’t this something that we need?

And what does it matter if the Labour party are in shambles (a common reason I hear for not wanting to vote for them this time)? Surely that’s because of all of the ‘unelectable’ stuff above. But if he were to be elected, I’m guessing those problems would evaporate. Because he would have been elected. And anyway, aren’t political parties often shambolic? Wasn’t May’s drastic cabinet overhaul and sackings at the beginning of her reign (not to mention the Boris/Gove thing in the leadership contest) a clear sign of an ununited, shambolic party?

I realise Corbyn isn’t to everyone’s tastes politically but if you’re left leaning and want to try and get rid of the Tories, surely he’s not such a bad bet?

I’m sorry if this is making me come across as stupid but I genuinely want to know why some people (especially those who would normally consider themselves left-wing or Labour voters) dislike him so much.

Makeourfuture do you believe we should all earn the same?

Well "earn" is a difficult term.

But is of interest. I do think that we as a society have decided that certain things should be provided for by community effort. The military is a good example. And society works better when we aren't constantly worried about French invasion. We can plan for instance in these stable conditions.

Roads are a great example of the power of socialism. Everyone contributes, and even if we don't drive, society is made better by the ability to move goods, etc.

As stated by someone on another thread, a healthy population leads to a more stable society. Utilitarianism is based on "utility"....that it works.

I see no reason why these concepts cannot be expanded to include other things. Housing. Food.

Instead of asking whether profit drives effort, it might be a better idea to ask each of us to examine what makes us content. Safety. Decent food and adequate rest.Mental stimulation through education and even entertainment. Physical activity.

We see time and again mentioned the fear of a spartan retirement as a driver for accumulation. But what if this fear is removed by adequate social provision?

Where is the shining example of these things being well provided by the public sector though? As far as I know, the economies with the most central control are the ones that tend to be the worst off.

I don't really want free, very poorly provided housing or education for everyone, I'd rather have a free choice, and for the options for people that can't afford to pay to not be so crap.

Where is the shining example of these things being well provided by the public sector though?

Well in regards to national security. I feel the UK does a pretty good job. I feel safe from foreign invasion. And I think, in spite of pothole news, we do a good job with the physical infrastructure of our road systems. Some people come around every fortnight and take my rubbish away without fail.

It's not the implication that those on lower wages have not tried as hard - but they have been able to earn whilst I was busy studying and paying for the privilege. Also I then take a higher risk at work - have to do CPD in my own time etc. Why should I be paid the same as minimum wage when jobs on that don't generally have those extra responsibilities?

Social provision sometimes removes choice though. Similar to nolottery I want choice, but decent options for those who cannot pay.

Oh and i work for the money - so I can buy things which my family enjoys doing.

Interesting that when Ed Milliband was criticised for the way he ate a bacon sandwich, there were cries of criticise the policies, not the man. Yet there seems to be much more criticism now of Corbyn rather than Labour policies. So it wonder why now, some are engaging in the same behaviour they accused the media of in the last election?

Has anyone else noticed that there is also a tendency here to compare Corbyn the man V Tory policies, rather than Corbyn V May, or Labour V Tories? I wonder where the apples and oranges comparisons have come from?

*I wonder why

Yet there seems to be much more criticism now of Corbyn rather than Labour policies..

Lots of criticism of the policies. Not one has been costed for starters. MP after MP refuse to answer the questions.

This is a different election though because the leader is so awful. Is tanking in the polls and is likely to lead Labour to virtual disaster.

grommit you've not read the thread properly if you've not read how I've looked at labour's proposed minimum wage hike and criticised it for several points - as have the IFS.

I see what you mean, Piglet. I suppose Corbyn is much more of a disaster personally than Ed was. But I did think the labour policies had been costed? I think someone posted up thread? Unless I read it wrong.

I decide who to vote for, by looking at the very worst policies a party proposes. Then I vote according to whether I could live with them being implemented. Should I be deciding like this?

For example, the idea of warehousing disabled people has been in The Guardian, though I know the paper is biased and I don't know how true the article is. But the idea makes me sick with fear, being disabled myself. Apparently, this is the line the Tories are going down, as it's more cost effective than care at home. I would honestly rather be dead, I think. So no matter what else the Tories propose, I couldn't vote for them on that alone.

How should we be deciding, does anyone know? Politics education seems so lacking in this country that it's hard to make an informed decision.

NoLottery - sorry, you're right, I must have missed that. I was talking in general terms really, not meaning to target one person. Sorry if it came over like that

One does wonder, Grommit, with the election a month away (clearly not enough time to change leaders) why some Labour supporters (members?) choose to publicly disparage their leader. Jeremy Corbyn will be party leader on election day.....what good can come from this airing of laundry?

I agree Make.

I'm worried that all the dislike of Corbyn, is going to result in a Tory landslide. Labour might be rubbish at the moment, and Corbyn a twonk, but I'd rather have them than the Tories. Corbyn could be ousted after the election anyway, irrespective of the result.

One thing the Tories are very good at is showing a united front. That gives the perception of strength. Whereas the PLP and Labour supporters who dislike Corbyn, are just shooting themselves in the foot.

But I did think the labour policies had been costed? I think someone posted up thread?

They say they have been but no MP including McDonnell seems to be able to say what that is. Other than CT which will pay in reality for a very tiny proportion of what they are proposing.

why some Labour supporters (members?) choose to publicly disparage their leader.

Maybe because they have red lines. As I have said my Jewish family and my friends who lost family to the IRA have very good reasons and they should be respected.

I think you will also find that a good proportion will spoil ballot papers.

From my pov, Corbyn has been given chance after chance to show he is a capable, competent leader - and he just hasn't done it. I voted for him in 2015 because I thought he would be a breath of fresh air.

My own personal line in the sand was Brexit, but there's much more to it than that. The anti-Semitism, treatment of female MPs, the complete lack of ability to hold this mendacious government to account. I could go on. I've just had enough, to be quite honest.

They haven't really been costed apart from the superficial tax the rich etc.

Take his higher corporation tax for example, it's ideological, and not sensible. There's no evidence to suggest that a higher rate would generate more revenue at all. It will only add to more companies transferring profits to Europe after Brexit. I'm really worried about this.

Thing such as renationalisation of railways - ideological. No evidence that anything could improve with what's being proposed. And to still bang on about zero hour contracts as some massive bogey man when he numbers do not represent labours stance on it.

The soundbites are agreeable to everyone, but unfortunately people want to see it being costed, some of his supporters are just becoming a text book example of the joke likes to make about the magic money tree..

So labour take away too.

I agree head-a lot of people have rose tinted specs on regarding the last Labour government.

The first thing Blair did was to cut single parent benefit. Short memories.

Warehousing of the disabled? If that happened grommit there would be mass protests, I can't see people of good conscience letting them get away with that, whether they can get the votes. Even in the Tory party they'd face revolt on that. Even the idea of offensive.

Ultimarely we all vote on different factors that are important to us.

Ultimately as a leader if you experience mass 'disloyalty' you should be asking yourself why. Perhaps the predicted Tory landslide isn't helping - it's Corbyn and not the Blairites responsible for this.

Sorry for all the typos!

That's why I sideeye Corbyn supporters saying they care. They don't care about the vulnerable as much as they care about Corbyn

Very good point. As long as they stick to a far left philosophy and remain that way telling everyone and anyone that will listen they care more what does it matter if Corbyn isn't PM they can console themselves they are sacrificing for the greater good and if you listen to the man himself it's all part of the revolution struggle

Ultimately as a leader if you experience mass 'disloyalty' you should be asking yourself why. Perhaps the predicted Tory landslide isn't helping - it's Corbyn and not the Blairites responsible for this.

Wait, what? Labour was pretty much in the lead poll wise before the blairite side of the PLP decided on that weird little coup and windowgate, yes Corbyn shoots himself in the foot occasionally and as a supporter of his I do groan when he does it but I do feel that those that say I'm Labour through and through but wont vote for Corbyn are kind of missing the point a little bit or that they became involved with the party post kinnock or early blair, for some of us we cheered him on because we rather labour was in (even tho some/a lot of his choices werent really the best) than have a tory government but still hoped that there was a chance that things would only get better (hate that bloody song lol)

I think in a way theres 2 fights going on in the party at the minute left vs right + socialism vs neo-liberalism and I'm certainly a left of centre socialist

Sorry for the ramble

You are worried that all this Corbyn dislike may result in a Tory landslide

Well maybe he shouldn't be leader of the party then

Blair dealt with a backlash from the far left but didn't matter so few in numbers he is centre left and need floating and centre voters

It's not difficult to work out these are they voters that Labour will always need to get into power even Corbyn could do those sums

One poll has shown Labour in the lead out of how many ?

When was this during the doctors strike or tax credit cuts

Labour should be miles ahead in the polls given what has been happening

Closest we ever got to the Tories in the polls was at the time of that omnishambles budget last March.

And what is 'windowgate'? Is that based on the conspiracy twaddle that was spread about Angela Eagle's broken window by people who didn't even know where her constituency was, let alone the actual layout etc of her office?