To think teachers should not puts hands on children

[Mousedl1]

So I went on a school trip today with my DS class as they needed volunteers. Lunch was outside sat on a field DS was asked to sit down twice by the class room helper, for back round other children were up and playing he was being his usual slow self. He classroom helper then grabbed him by the shoulders and literally forced him to sit down, he didn't say anything and just sat bewildered and looked at me as he has never been shoved to do something at home.
I was very angry but as a school trip said nothing, another mum saw I was annoyed and commented that helper can often be 'forceful' with children. I am now home and furious and I think even more so that my son accepted it which with the other comment makes me think this may not be the first time. He isn't a nasty child but can get silly and giggly (is 6) but I don't think this is appropriate from an adult, then 10 mins later another child punched someone in the face and she had to hold a hand for 5 mins 😤 So she was punished less for that in my opinion then him standing to eat his food. Is it unreasonable to go into school and tell them in no uncertain terms no body has the right to do this or is it best to leave it like my husband says as it will cause problems for my son long term (the helper moves up with the class each year so he has her for 1 more)

Are you sure he was literally forced to sit down, or was he guided to sit with hands on his shoulder? I frequently have to tap children on the shoulder or gently guide them places, it could in theory look like I was shoving from a distance but there is genuinely no pressure, just a hand to get their attention more than anything. (I was not on a school trip today by the way) If you are sure she actually forced him down then yes, talk to the school, but maybe check with DS that's what happened first.

There are lots of things we use in school that you wouldn't do at home, I don't blow a whistle to get DD to stand still or clap when i want silence either, children are generally pretty used to things working differently so I suspect the look was more 'oh bum, did mum see me being naughty? am I in trouble?'

As a side note, I can completely see why parents aren't withe their DC, my school don't take parent helpers on trips at all anymore, because it was becoming more hassle than it was worth.

Don't want to take over the thread but bigmac, this is particularly useful:

. What about other physical contact with pupils?
• It is not illegal to touch a pupil. There are occasions when physical contact, other than reasonable force, with a pupil is proper and necessary. 

• Examples of where touching a pupil might be proper or necessary:
• Holding the hand of the child at the front/back of the line when going to 
assembly or when walking together around the school; 

• When comforting a distressed pupil; 

• When a pupil is being congratulated or praised; 

• To demonstrate how to use a musical instrument; 

• To demonstrate exercises or techniques during PE lessons or sports coaching; and 

• To give first aid. 

So to comfort a pupil is fine.

You're a star LornaD40 - and me neither in wanting to take over. I am now wondering if the schools I know do not realise this, or are aware of it and take no notice. Huge help, thanks again!

What's a classroom helper? TA? Parent?

From "his usual slow self" I understood that he is a slow eater hence he was being asked to sit down and finish whilst others were up and playing.

I think it is totally normal for a six year old to ignore instructions, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with a guiding hand on the shoulder to bring the child's attention to the instruction.

It doesn't sound like rough handling to me, it sounds like a way of getting the child's attention.

Do parents who never touch their children not hold chins to gain eye contact, turn child around to face you by shoulders or yes, shock horror drag older child screaming and kicking into their room until they can behave themselves?
I have a slightly older child (7) and physically couldn't drag him somewhere he didn't want to go. Which I know because he's my child and of course I do touch him, in normal friendly interactions. I can just about pick him up still if he cooperates! I don't like the idea of grabbing someone by the chin, I might touch someone on the shoulder to get their attention if I was close to them. But that would be an affectionate touch and not really appropriate in a school setting either.

Physically pushing a child around is something you do when they're a toddler and haven't learned to follow instructions/listen to reason. If you need it with an older child things have gone badly wrong. And I'd be really worried about what happens when they get big enough to push back.

I think I said hold chin not grab chin.
Can you seriously not pick up your seven year old and walk them quickly to their room? Are they enormous?
Nothing badly wrong with my children - all very well adjusted and confident but they were definitely certain about expectations and knew who was the parent and in charge until they reached adulthood.
Sometimes physical instruction is better received than verbal. I'm not talking beating or pushing violently but simply using firm touch to help child understand what is required.
That said I have frog marched a hungover 16 year old into school when they tried to pull a sicky and removed several teenage children from their beds into the study to revise. It's not abuse - it's parenting.

I do worry about parents who think even speaking sharply to their child is abusive and who seem somehow afraid to be the one who is in charge for fear of upsetting their child.

IT very much depends on the amount of pressure which could be difficult to tell.

Crumbs, I don't like the idea of doing anything forcible with a chin and don't need to to get attention. And if they're not listening I'm not generally in the mood for affectionate chucking of chins.

Not enormous, strong. I've seen DH try to strong arm DS and it's a disaster. If DS pushes back you either have to escalate the physical conflict (really ugly) or revert to verbal disciplining anyway. If you need to use verbal discipline to make them submit to physical discipline, why not just use the verbal discipline to make them do what you want in the first place?

DS is 7, he does not need physical instruction to find his way to his bedroom when told to go there! And sorry but if your 16 yr old chooses to let you frog march them, they're humouring you. Assuming you're not some kind of 6 ft martial arts expert anyway.

Yanbu.

Ignore the idiots who think they know better even though you were there and they weren't .

Especially in light of a witness I would take it further. It's not on.

I remember a teacher booting an 11 year old in the small of his back when I was at middle school. He went on to suffer a nasty head injury. Nearly 30 years later and its never left me I was so shocked.

you sure he was literally forced to sit down, or was he guided to sit with hands on his shoulder? I frequently have to tap children on the shoulder

It is unlikely to be the former, as if the TA had been forced down by pressure on the shoulders he would have been sent sprawling into a heap on the floor rather than being returned to a seating position.

I can't imagine they forced your disobedient child to sit down. Pushed downward from sitting to standing takes incredible force. The person upright is using almost every muscle in their body in the way it was meant to be used. Taking someone to the ground when they don't want to means buckling their knees or toppling them over.

I suspect he was guided into sitting through the TA touching his shoulder.

You're being very unreasonable OP.

I'm just wondering what the TA should have done in this situation? Let the lad continue to ignore her? Having been caned nearly every day of my primary school (I didn't mind it but I'm not saying that it is therefore to be recommended), I find the OP to be OTT precious. And it is only her child who was mistreated by this TA, no other child "suffered" at their hands.

I remember a teacher shoving a kid in a cupboard.
But my anecdote from the past is as relevant as yours Willyou.

For future reference OP(s) that there "safeguarding" you talk about has, as its central tenet "removing a/the minor from a clear and present danger or a perceived one" (you'll know this of course from your training) so not relevant here.

I've helped on many school trips. I've learnt that in that situation DS2 is far more likely to listen to any other adult than me, so I tend to ignore him.

DD's very slow. She's not disobedient, she just takes a long time to react. Only yesterday we had an amusing incident:

Me: DD, shake Mr X's hand, DS2 has come out.

DD: (ignores me)

Me: DD, shake Mr X's hand, DS2 has come out.

DD: (ignores me)

Mr X: DD! (shakes DD's hand, gives me a huge grin)

I agree with other posters that it sounds more like guiding as otherwise he would have landed in a heap.

You are over reacting.
Trips are so bloody difficult, it's like herding cats. Children need to be obedient and quickly to keep them all safe.
Time spent trying to coax a disobedient child to sit down is time taken away from monitoring the group.
YABU (and one of "those" parents)

I'm a grandmother. Corporal punishment was very much in evidence when I was young. I'm glad to say it is no longer, however common sense also seems to have disappeared. This saddened me when I read it. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4438190/Teacher-s-career-ruined-s-dragged-courts.html

Why ask if you are being unreasonable then when told you are you still ignore it and carry on trying to justify your point?
What's the point in starting a thread just to ignore the responses?

I hope you've slept on this and aren't going to go into school and make a total idiot of yourself this morning.

If it had happened to mine I would have told her to sit down when first asked next time.
If she had been smacked or hurt that would be different.

This.
OP, you've already admitted that he wasn't hurt in any way. Just get a grip.

No wonder there are so many entitled children about nowadays.

Aibu? - Yes - " no I'm not" .
Why bother posting op, your arguing with the responses. .
I think you should be more concerned with your ds not doing as he is told.

That Daily Mail article is bollocks - as that's not how charges for assault work.

I have lots of experience of extreme physical behaviours and on the whole in those situations I think schools can often be too restrictive (too hands on), and escalate. However, in this case I think you are being a bit over the top OP. I also suspect he looked at you to see whether he was in trouble with you. I would have raised an eyebrow at mine (or once a bit older used a different expression to show if I thought the teacher had been a bit unfair).

School trips with young children do need the kids to behave and do what they're told immediately. I came across a bunch of infants at the beach this week being blasted for going into the toilets before the teacher/TA had checked they were empty because they'd been told to wait - they had - 2 seconds before, several times. Although I am quite used to be under threat of being lamped with no warning in my daily life - all I thought is I couldn't do her job without keeling over with a heart attack

if you need it with an older child then things have gone badly wrong.

DS is 8, has SNs and has the mental age of a three year old. The pushing thing I can understand but you need to consider the context. Last week when my DS impulsively shot out into the road in front of a car, my instinct was to grab him and pull him back from the car that was hurtling down the hill at speed. Do you think my local A&E would have thanked me if I'd have rocked up with an injured child and told them I couldn't touch him because I hadn't judged the reasonable force thing yet? No, they'd have quite rightly placed me in the batshit parent category. It's not gone 'badly wrong' with DS. He'll never understand the awareness of danger and I'll always be doing this sort of thing to keep him safe. Yes I also used to have to pick and carry my then 7yo DS into his last school that he hated with a passion, kicking and screaming, every single morning. It's called being a parent.

At the end of the day you were there. None of us were and so we can only speculate.

I would bear that in mind and follow your gut. You are certainly not an idiot if you choose to raise it with the school if you feel uncomfortable with what you saw. You should never let the opinions of strangers who didn't witness what you did influence you.