To think teachers should not puts hands on children

[Mousedl1]

So I went on a school trip today with my DS class as they needed volunteers. Lunch was outside sat on a field DS was asked to sit down twice by the class room helper, for back round other children were up and playing he was being his usual slow self. He classroom helper then grabbed him by the shoulders and literally forced him to sit down, he didn't say anything and just sat bewildered and looked at me as he has never been shoved to do something at home.
I was very angry but as a school trip said nothing, another mum saw I was annoyed and commented that helper can often be 'forceful' with children. I am now home and furious and I think even more so that my son accepted it which with the other comment makes me think this may not be the first time. He isn't a nasty child but can get silly and giggly (is 6) but I don't think this is appropriate from an adult, then 10 mins later another child punched someone in the face and she had to hold a hand for 5 mins 😤 So she was punished less for that in my opinion then him standing to eat his food. Is it unreasonable to go into school and tell them in no uncertain terms no body has the right to do this or is it best to leave it like my husband says as it will cause problems for my son long term (the helper moves up with the class each year so he has her for 1 more)

so where was the 1-2-1 for the child when the relative went to the loo?

Sorry Honey - although you'd think that OP wouldn't have continued with your error

(And I'm not sure what 'flight risk training' is - didn't even come across that at the PRU, and most of them were runners...)

sorry but I think you are over dramatizing this - the TA put her hands and guided him to sit because he was messing about and not doing as he had been repeatedly asked. If it wasn't your own child would you have you knickers in such a twist??
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Haha I'm not sure what flight risk training is either and I asked the question. Just couldn't think of the name for the handling training that might be used.

I give up.

Op do you work at the school or something? Or have made it vague for whatever reason. Honestly the whole day is sounding total FURBAR.

I find this quite sad in a way, DS & I had a bad experience with some staff at his last school, they didn't quite know how to handle his complex needs and often made a bad job of a difficult situation. Even with all of that, I can't see a teacher doing this, as they'd know the parent would complain in an instant and it's worth more than their job is.

A friend of mine helped on a trip recently and her DC happened to be on the same one, tummy bug going around like wildfire, DC started feeling unwell and naturally began wanting mummy, she wasn't even allowed to comfort her own DC whilst on the trip.
Barmy rules like this come about from situations like this. Where no one daren't do anything, even with their own child, in case someone complains.

OP. If the other parent hadn't implied it and it wasn't your DS but someone else, would you still have been concerned?

As a foster carer who has cared for many young people with serious behavioural issues I have the following thoughts. I understand you are upset/annoyed and would feel justified in going into the school and making a complaint. You are of course entitled to do that and I do not think you would be unreasonable for doing so. I hope you and your son are OK.

As a foster carer I cannot tell you how many courses we have been on about not touching a child, incase anything could be misinterpreted. However, in reality this is a rule we break. Not just for actions with a negative conotation, but in physical hugs and hand holdingtoo.

One child I cared for went to a school where due to a parent's earlier complaint about a similiar issue (a complaint that may well have been fully justified too) lead to no member of staff touching a child under any circumstances. Unfortunately the child I cared for soon learned this and used it to his own advantage. We were not expecting the child to be physically restrained over a minor issue, but a gentle pat on the shoulder and being lead quietly away, would from my knowledge of the child have worked wonders. But the staff were not able to put their hands on him.

On another occasion another child ran out of school and across a busy road, where again the staff were not allowed to touch him. My husband who happened to be there caught him and lead him back to the school. Shock/horror my husband broke every rule in the book, but also saved a potential accident. The child's parents btw later thanked him.

So I guess what my ramblings are saying is that a minor justified complaint like yours, can sadly sometimes result in a zero tolerance policy, that can have an effect on others. Reading that back I realise that may sound like you should not report, but actually I do not mean that. If you genuinely feel justified then you must, but if on honest reflection her action was an acceptable one then maybe you shouldn't.

Is there a middle response of a quiet word?

I got the impression the OP was just a helper for the trip but has an enhanced DBS for her actual job. The flight-risk-training involving one.

HoneyDragon - the OP also referred to it as a DRB in response to you at 20.46. It was slightly odd.

A friend of mine helped on a trip recently and her DC happened to be on the same one, tummy bug going around like wildfire, DC started feeling unwell and naturally began wanting mummy, she wasn't even allowed to comfort her own DC whilst on the trip. Barmy rules like this come about from situations like this. Where no one daren't do anything, even with their own child, in case someone complains

AwaywiththePixies27 your post says exactly what my rambling one above was supposed to say. Thanks for putting into words what I had been trying to say.

A recent example to illustrate this is a little girl we had fostered for several years but had remained unattached and never shown us any affection. One day we happily (but naively) told her social worker she had sat next to my husband for a cuddle as he read her a bedtime story. We were so pleased to have had this breakthrough we forgot the social worker's response would be one of horror and how he must, at all costs, never allow such shows of affection to happen again. It's a bit sad really.

That's because the OP is tired and has had a long day just wrote the wrong thing after reading it incorrectly

DC started feeling unwell and naturally began wanting mummy, she wasn't even allowed to comfort her own DC whilst on the trip.

I've had this situation with a member of school staff and had to take a hard line with it. DC constantly went into her class with feeble excuses and DC was continually wanting mummy when he misbehaved and ended up in my office. As far as I'm concerned if a child has a parent around during the school day they should be treated as if the parent isn't present. Afterall, most children do not have a parent present in school. If the child on the trip was ill then an alternative contact should have been called as 'mummy" was there helping out and not there for her child. Apart from that, a tummy bug spreads like wildfire and the child should have been sent home. The rules aren't "barmy" in the situation I had to deal with.

Oh....didn't twig.

I'm giving up, I'm too tired and confused.

Wow, so much judging on OP's parenting here!!

bigmac4me you're welcome.

DS has two responses. He'll either avoid you like the plague or form an immediate attachment to people he's just met. He did this with his Camhs worker at Christmas, the worker even put in their report 'DS was inconsolable when I left at our final session'. It's true! He was!
He was forever running off at his last school, and the one person he took to always pushed him away (the SENCO of all people!) so he didn't bother trying anymore and withdrew into himself

At his new school, when he goes to hug he isn't pushed away immediately, he's hugged back and then gently guided on to do something / away from breaking that professional boundary without being taught or led to believe that it is wrong.

I agree with justcallmekate in relation to pixies post.

I taught a colleagues child and they never once got treated any differently (aside from having parents night over a cuppa and left over staffroom goodies). However there was one occasion, on the last day of term, when the child woke with a slight temperature and mouth pain. Colleague politely asked if I could send child up at break and lunch for calpol. No special treatment was necessary or granted.

JustCallMeKate I understand that. I do. My friend is quite professional and had to keep trying to ignore / not notice her DC, who was being suitably looked after by another member of staff, but as you know if kids see mum they'll want mum. Child had been fine up until the late afternoon. Couldn't be sent home as the Dad was at work and her Mum going home would have meant she'd have left the school short staffed.

My point about it being barmy, and probably badly put, is that if the OP went in all guns blazing then they'd be new/revises rules about absolutely no touching at any times and then as bigmac says you then run into the situations where the child is in danger and no one can do anything.

I understand your frustration op but you're really over reacting.

Of course you are being unreasonable.

If you are concerned, I think you should go in to school to explore the situation. Not to go in all guns blazing but keep it to a general discussion clarifying school policy in such a situation, rather than a specific complaint against an individual. . You could ask to discuss what happened, listen to the response and suggest all staff are reminded of relevant policy at the next opportunity.

No LA or school should she a total hands off policy - its illegal. They are in loco parentis and have a duty of care.

ALL physical contact should be reasonable proportionate and necessary.

If your ds was standing up when asked to sit down it is reasonable to sit him down if he's putting himself or others in danger (blocking view for example)

Proportionate is the amount of force. He clearly didn't resist as resisting being physically sat is easy and force would have required using limbs to bend the child at the back of the knees and hips - which isn't ok on normal circumstances.

It it may be easy to prove it's necessary if, as
above he was putting others on danger.
It is also ok to use physical intervention to maintain good order.

Change your attitude OP "his usual slow self"

And just gently speak to the TA and say what she did looked rougher and inappropriate whether she meant it to or not and if she is being disproportionately rough she risks losing her job.

No LA or school should she a total hands off policy - its illegal. They are in loco parentis and have a duty of care

I don't disbelieve you youarenotkiddingme but certainly I know of schools that operate this "illegal" policy. I am actually pleased if you are correct. Can I ask, without outing yourself, how you know this for certain? I ask because if I had facts at my disposal it wold greatly help me in dealing with school's policies towards the looked after children I foster.

I did not want to go into detail, but I was involved in a serious injury to a staff member by a foster child, as other staff members were not allowed to restrain him. He is now in secure accomodation where the rules are of course different. Up until now I was appalled at this extreme hands off policy, but if as you say this is an illegal policy to have then I am even more appalled.

Bigmac:

• Schools should not have a ‘no contact’ policy. There is a real risk that such a policy might place a member of staff in breach of their duty of care towards a pupil, or prevent them taking action needed to prevent a pupil causing harm.

From the reasonable force guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/444051/UseeofreasonableeforceadviceeReviewedJulyy2015.pdf

If you're not occasionally using physical contact to guide and bring about compliance then you're probably not parenting terribly effectively. Parents should be supportive of schools in making sure children learn to respond to direction and rules.
Sometimes it's kinder just to put a hand on and steer into the required action. I can't believe the child was bewildered- most children understand physical direction far better than verbal.

Do parents who never touch their children not hold chins to gain eye contact, turn child around to face you by shoulders or yes, shock horror drag older child screaming and kicking into their room until they can behave themselves?

Thanks so much LornaD40. Very helpful of you.