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AIBU?

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Original poster

To wonder wtf is going on in Wales?

385 replies

brexitstolemyfuture · 24/04/2017 22:20

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-labour-poll-wales-yogov-majority-seats-first-time-century-a7699776.html%3famp

Tories predicted to get a majority for the first time in a century. I thought this was fake news, but no it's real Shock

OP posts:
Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 20:11

When I was a student I knew people who drove home from their uni town to vote in both places.
Fraud does happen and we'll never really know the extent of it.

"How the flip do you think you're going to reliably prove everyone's actual ID without a massive amount of extra time money and hassle? "

It wouldn't cost any extra time and money to require people to bring their polling card with them.
Northern Ireland already had a requirement to use photo ID.

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 20:13

"My postal vote has had the checks enhanced - I have to sign and the signature has to match what is held on file"

That doesn't solve the issue I mentioned earlier of the possibility of a domineering family member requiring their family to vote in a certain way, something they couldn't do with a secret ballot.

Justanotherlurker · 27/04/2017 20:16

How many? Not enough to justify millions and millions in compulsory photo ID for all (which can still be forged).

Well, personally one is enough for me as it shouldn't happen at all.

ID cards where shouted down when Labour tried to implement them but I can see benefits across multiple applications using them, saying they can be faked is true but with todays tech saying they can be easily faked is wrong and not one of the arguments against IMO, but that's a discussion for another day.

I am prepared to trade a tiny amount in fraud for the ease of the current system thanks.

That's a scary mindset to have, but if your happy with it then so be it.

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 20:43

That's a scary mindset to have
In your opinion - a few fraudulent votes is a small price to pay, there are waaaaay more important issues to dealing with - in my humble opinion, " personally one is enough for me" if far more scary as it suggests putting a the vast majority of people who haven't done anything wrong to huge amount of cost and bother to stop ONE PERSON doing something wrong - that is really scary!

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 20:48

It wouldn't cost any extra time and money to require people to bring their polling card with them. No, but that's not photo ID either, which is what you said you wanted..

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 20:49

That doesn't solve the issue I mentioned earlier of the possibility of a domineering family member requiring their family to vote in a certain way, something they couldn't do with a secret ballot.

I agree, however I suspect the chances that someone who is subjugated enough to vote as they are told indoors by post would be allowed to go out and vote are slight, so I'd love to know what you propose to help with that.

squishysquirmy · 27/04/2017 20:50

Justanotherlurker: "I wouldn't be surprised if Remain were using it too tbh and if they weren't then they should have been."

Many of the tactics used by leave.eu were not used by either the official leave campaign or the remain campaign. They were innovative, and innovative ideas only seem obvious once someone else has done them. That said, I am sure we will see more of it from all sides in the future. There may be no technical wrongdoing, but that's partly because it would never have occurred to anyone when the legislation was written to legislate against it.

I agree with you that it is good for us all for this stuff to be in the public eye, though.

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 20:50

ID cards where shouted down when Labour tried to implement them

Because they were a very expensive "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.

CopperRose · 27/04/2017 21:10

Squishy, I agree that the Leave.eu tactics were dancing on the line of legally acceptable (and definitely morally questionable in generally accepted terms)

There's a view that deviance is actually a necessary function in society as it promotes and facilitates innovation (as you pointed out) - it just takes one person to do it and for it to succeed before everyone else jumps on the bandwagon.

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 21:50

"It wouldn't cost any extra time and money to require people to bring their polling card with them. No, but that's not photo ID either, which is what you said you wanted.."

Photo ID would be more secure, but using the polling cards would already be a good sign. I've just remembered another friend who admitted he voted for someone else once. It's a ridiculous system.

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 21:54

"hat's not photo ID either, which is what you said you wanted.."

I've looked back through my comments and I can't see where I said I wanted photo ID.

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 21:56

"I suspect the chances that someone who is subjugated enough to vote as they are told indoors by post would be allowed to go out and vote are slight"

I disagree. They may be allowed out to work, to the shops, wherever, but the voting might still be supervised by the domineering character.

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 21:59

I've looked back through my comments and I can't see where I said I wanted photo ID.

Apologies, I agree Andrewofgg wanted photo ID. I stand corrected.

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 22:01

I disagree. They may be allowed out to work, to the shops, wherever, but the voting might still be supervised by the domineering character.

OK, how are you planning to address that whilst still allowing me to vote given that my work means I cannot guarantee I will be at home to do so on polling day?

wasonthelist · 27/04/2017 22:02

It's a ridiculous system.
No it's a simple, easy to use system that mostly works fine.

Justanotherlurker · 27/04/2017 22:03

Because they were a very expensive "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.

Well considering many European countries already have ID cards its not exactly unique.

It would solve a multitude of problems, Daily mail readers complaining about about health tourism, well documented cases prov otherwise, etc

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 22:04

"Electoral Commission chairwoman Jenny Watson said: "Proven cases of electoral fraud remain rare, but it is important that no-one underestimates how serious it is when it does occur."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26520836

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 22:06

"No it's a simple, easy to use system that mostly works fine."

The fact that I can go to any polling station anywhere and pretend to be an elector is fine? See the Electoral Commission's quote above. She says 'proven' cases are rare - we don't know how many cases there are in reality.

Gwenhwyfar · 27/04/2017 22:08

"how are you planning to address that whilst still allowing me to vote given that my work means I cannot guarantee I will be at home to do so on polling day?"

People who want postal voted to need to give a good reason why - as used to be the case in the past I think. Political parties to stop promoting them (I don't blame them for doing it because all the others are).

squishysquirmy · 27/04/2017 22:18

2015 I had to do a "tendered" vote because my name was already crossed off at the polling station. Caused a massive faff and much cross checking and paper shuffling by the staff, because I kicked up a very polite fuss but I think someone had just crossed off the wrong name earlier in the day. You're making me wonder now, Gwenhwyfar!

Justanotherlurker · 27/04/2017 23:22

Squishy, I agree that the Leave.eu tactics were dancing on the line of legally acceptable (and definitely morally questionable in generally accepted terms)

No they wasn't, they had utilised a Big Data system that has been used before, the "legally acceptable" is nothing more than another term for "the wrong team won". For every person that voted to fund the £350M to the NHS, there was an alternative vote that tried to prevent the "emergency budget"

As i said previously, big data is going to play a huge part in our lives going forward, the snoopers charter etc went under the radar and is supported by labour. Get used to it, a team you don't like used it first, nothing more.

Callalily1234 · 27/04/2017 23:35

Wales has had huge amounts of dosh from EU funds. When we leave EU those funds will dry uo..

Callalily1234 · 27/04/2017 23:35

+up not uo

CopperRose · 27/04/2017 23:40

Justanotherlurker, the team I wanted to win, won.

I was just agreeing that the way Leave.eu went about things was dubious, that's all.

Justanotherlurker · 28/04/2017 00:06

I was just agreeing that the way Leave.eu went about things was dubious, that's all.

Sorry, sometimes come across as to argumentative.

I think both sides used dubious tactics to be honest (as a remainer), its just that the leave campaign utilised a bleeding edge system that had matured enough to be effective