AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

I'm the OP and to all the people who say I am antifeminist and have no principles, I'm merely posing a question. Truth is I've only had two long-term partners, have been alone and independent for most of my life (not reliant on a man), I've always paid my way including my own house, have always worked FT in a professional job and am raising 2DCs on my own without family close by. I've also been very active in the pro-choice movement and supporting women's health. So I think I'm living the kind of 'independent and principled life' that you'd feel would forward the feminist agenda.

But guess what? While I'm hugely proud of doing it all by myself It's bloody hard and sometimes it would be nice not to worry about money all the time. I'm not sure if I'd encourage my DD to live this life.

Some women on this thread are critiquing from a place where they have the buffer/cushion of a DH that contributes financially and for some, a DH that is wealthy enough to allow them to work PT or SAH. Was that outcome purely just luck? You didn't consider remotely what financial contribution your future DH might make? How different is it to 'think seriously' about the earning potential of a future DH than to be inclined to marry someone with money or from a monied background? These things really aren't hugely different.

It's just so limiting to encourage girls to think about this kind of thing. Why shouldn't anyone encourage their sons to think about the future earning potential of potential wives of theirs? Many men no doubt wish they didn't have to worry about money. They might not want to focus on a career, might want to take on the brunt of the childcare or become SAHDs.

As I've said on this thread, if my mother told me to think like this I'd find it rather dispiriting. It's outdated to say the least. I might not want to get married, I don't know yet. What I do know is I want to have a fulfilling career which enables me to live the kind of lifestyle I want, funded by myself. Whether I'll achieve that or not I don't know but it's what I'm striving for, fully encouraged by my parents who have instilled in me a belief I'll succeed in doing what I want.

People have referred to the 'for richer for poorer' thing, which is a good point. What happens if you deliberately 'marry well' and then it turns out you 'married badly'? Even worse, what happens if your spouse deliberately 'marries well' and then discovers s/he's married badly?!

My children's father specifically wanted girl friends from the local law college rather than the local teacher training college all those years ago because they were brighter and would earn more and he married one (married me) (and he of course got a big divorce pay out from me, lawyer in due course 20 years on, so he was not wrong there). I always knew I could earn a fair bit so for me before we were even engaged things like would he be prepared to look after the children if our childcare arrangements did not work out came up (and he would have been although we didn't need that). I did want someone who had graudated (which only 15% of us had in those days) and in that sense was similar and was a good fit in other ways (we are both sensible with money , wanted similar (prviate) schools for the children,. similar hobbies (choral singing) etc).

I suspect most of us end up with people like us. There used to be more marrying across class and income and educational divides from about 1944 to the 90s but that is getting less and less. More people are marrying someone who earns as much as they do. We still have a problem with women not being prepared to marry men who earn less which means when it comes to one having to stop work or work less it tends to be the women which holds back equality. We need lots of women to marry lower earner men and the men go part time when babies come to help get more women into work and into senior positions.

"I've also been very active in the pro-choice movement and supporting women's health."

Me too.

"Some women on this thread are critiquing from a place where they have the buffer/cushion of a DH that contributes financially and for some, a DH that is wealthy enough to allow them to work PT or SAH"

For some, yes, but not me. I'm a working single parent. Never married, never wanted to be. I was in a LTR with an ambitious, hard working, financially successful man which looked wonderful on the surface but underneath it was a disaster. He was a an abusive workaholic.

I don't have much money now - very little actually - and it is very hard work, but I'm much happier on my own. I understand that kind of situation isn't for everyone though.

If things are tough it's understandable you might look at women who in relationships where they seem to have it all - money, a supportive partner, good lifestyle - and feel envious. That's just what you see though and the picture from inside the relationship may be very different. I've seen quite a few threads on MN from women who are in a 'gilded cage' type of relationship with a wealthy man and feel stuck. That's not a position I would ever want to be in.

I think the idea that women should be advised to marry well is antifeminist because it's so regressive and harks back to women being treated as property.

Essentially, it's reducing marraiges/partnerships to a parent-child type of relationship with the man (parent figure) taking responsibility for and 'looking after' the woman (child figure). That's not an equal relationship and not something women should be encouraged to aim for.

Also consider that we do not know what the future holds for us. We may marry a high flyer who crashes and burns for many different reasons developing poor health is an obvious one. It then may be entirely down to us to earn the families daily bread. My advice would be marry someone you love and respect and are willing to shoulder life's burdens with and who likewise feels the same about you.

Mums that have careers and children, manage to keep the house clean, take the children to clubs are awesome. I cant stress that enough.

This offends me. I have a career and children, a wonderful SAHH and am pretty awesome but I'm no superwoman. I'm normal. Trying the best I can. Rubbish at cleaning and I never quite make those clubs. A failure probably in your eyes, ChickenDipper

Why be so judgmental about others' choices and needs?

YANBU - of course whoever they fall in love with I'll be happy with but what you're saying does make sense

No point getting married if your partner can't bring something to the table. Easier to just keep it casual for as long as it suits otherwise. Sounds harsh, but the social statistics bare this out in practice.

Bringing something to the table or pulling one's own weight can be more than just bringing money in btw.

I think we will find that the lives of our daughters are very different from ours. Their husbands will expect a more equal relationship as well as our daughters expecting to have more equal prospects. So I think your advice is off for that reason, seeing only 50% of the equation.

Secondly I think it's off as it's suggesting somehow not choosing for a real relationship. Your husband may have "prospects" that never come to pass and then where are you?

I'm financially independent, I have never married, I have a child I support 100% myself.

It's has its downsides but life is fine.

Wouldn;t like to be dependent on someone else to earn money.

I don't agree. I want to be encouraging my daughter to be breaking glass ceilings of the male dominated board rooms if that's what she wants. IF she does decide to settle down (why does she have to marry?) I want it to be because she's head over heels in love and has found someone who treats her well and makes her happy, not because that person can offer her an easier or more secure life.

Indeed, EmpressoftheMundane. Some posters seem to think the ideal marriage is one where the woman can wipe the floor with the man, the better to prove her "self-sufficiency"

I think it's far better to encourage our daughters to have good careers and be financially independent. It's never a good idea to rely on a man's wealth. I know so many women trapped in miserable 'wealthy' marriages.

If I'm 100% honest I would not be happy about any of my daughter's marrying someone who doesn't have a decent career. I had the opportunity to marry some very well off men but I didn't because I didn't feel I was into them enough. As I've become older I've realised life would be easier if we didn't ever have to worry about money.

But I think if someone's career is top of your list you'll never know whether you're with them because you truly love them. A loveless marriage sounds pretty crappy to me.

So why not encourage sons to marry wealthy women/women with good careers and high earning potential?

I have been married for 35 years. I have been a SAHM, worked PT, gone back to Uni and now have senior job in an FE college. My DH has also had well paid work, been a SAHD, retrained and now earns more than the national average. You cannot see into the future - both of us have experienced redundancy and subsequent retraining. We got used to being frugal but our kids were happy, as were we. We are coming up to retirement - not great pensions due to moving careers but we'll manage as long as we have our health. Health us the most important part of the jigsaw and none of use can guarantee that however much we earn

I married for love and ended up with a DH who makes a very high income and has a stellar career. Was never planned that way and the only reason DH got a second date was that he had table manners (we met here in the US). I choose to work and DH supports me in my working on condition it doesn't cost us as a family.

Personally I think I married really well. I have the best of both worlds and when we got married I had a pre-nup to protect both of our premarital assets. I encourage my DC to work hard at school and our family motto is 'When you fail you pick yourself up and try again.'

I didn't work for a short period after we married and I will never do that again. It was a disaster for our marriage.

I'd like to say YABU but I wish I'd encouraged my daughters to marry well. Their lives would be easier and so would mine.

Some women on this thread are critiquing from a place where they have the buffer/cushion of a DH that contributes financially and for some, a DH that is wealthy enough to allow them to work PT or SAH. Was that outcome purely just luck? You didn't consider remotely what financial contribution your future DH might make? How different is it to 'think seriously' about the earning potential of a future DH than to be inclined to marry someone with money or from a monied background? These things really aren't hugely different.

Speaking as a PTer, I thought about a lot more than financial contributions. Because in order to have the meaningful part time career I wanted, whilst also being able to keep childcare requirements low, I needed more than earnings from my husband. I also needed someone who was willing not to think only about their contribution in financial terms, and to make choices allowing us to live cheaply.

Caramel assuming g the difficulties are financial why don't you regret not telling them to pursue a highly paid career?
Would you say the same if they were sons?

If 'marrying well' is the apogee of female achievement then maybe we should all be looking to the likes of Natasha Massey as a role model...

It's not the same for men because women who decide to have children usually need to take time out of work. Not all women are going to be able to have highly paid careers. There is still a bias of men having an easier ride to the top. We can pretend it doesn't but it does,

No I shall encourage my ds only rob be in relationships where you are equal and love and respect each other

Problem with marrying well is that if the man (or woman) is well aware you have married well (that he/she is a good catch) the power balance is tipped it isn't equal

And should you split up it doesn't mean you will be looked after

If I had daughters I would always encourage them to be as independent as they possibly can be. I have known too many women who married well and turn a blind eye as a pay off

Saying that being a single parent myself I can understand why so many turn a blind eye as the comfort of no money worries is very appealing