AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

I think a well paid husband would be the icing on the cake but certainly not the aim. As a package that would lead to a very nice life- options to stay home with the kids etc. Let's face it money worries are a huge strain on the happiest of marriages. Tricky indeed!

If you 'snap' the washing when you hang it out, it doesn't need ironing at all.

Not true at all, even given the generally windy conditions where we live. Smart shirts and trousers for work still definitely need an iron.

makeourfuture - What's your position on polycotton bedsheets? Iron or no iron? I would generally run an iron over as a matter of course but DW disagrees.

My definition of "marrying well" is marrying someone who will respect you, love you, treat you as an equal and care for you, money or no money. Money does not equal happiness. It can make life a little more comfortable but should not be the be all and end all of a marriage. Girls should be encouraged to aim for the sky, be independent and and not have to rely on a man with bags of cash to make them happy.

Yanbu. The way I see it OP, it's nothing to do with feminism so long as you foster and promote the the individual qualities of a "well established and successful - in every sense - man". To be the ideal "marrying well suitor" he will be intelligent and well educated, hard working and driven, loyal and responsible, etc. So you don't want them to find, for example, someone "upwardly mobile" (love that term! Yupie-tastic ahaha) - you want them to find someone with all the characteristics (and therefore success etc) of that guy. No moral dilemma there
Otherwise put them in the schools/social circles/post codes of the right type if finances permit, that's an easy way that definitely works if it's affordable. Slyer, yes, but more organic, although personally I think that instilling the importance on a personal level as you were saying is more beneficial long-term.

I think you're forgetting that our daughters will ignore all our advice anyway, and go their own sweet way! In fact, potential husbands we disapprove of (whether due to bank balance or otherwise), will only make such men even more attractive to them!

God no I won't be encouraging my DD to do this. I'll encourage her to find her own career and be financially independent. I hope she'll choose a decent man who will work hard anyway although of course that doesn't mean he will earn well.

I married DH because I love him and he is a decent kind man. He was earning pittance when we got together and was in huge amounts of debt. We both worked hard and he paid off the debt. Over time he has changed careers and worked his arse off and now earns 6 figures.

Whilst I agree that marrying well is good. I think it is also important that they get something for themselves to fall back on.
My mum was a stay at home mum and my dad had a good job but was diagnosed with a delibitating illness whilst I was a teenager. My mum suddenly found she then had to find a job but this was hard having been a stay at home mum for 14 years. Things had changed since she was a secretary due computers etc. She wanted to retrain but this was also difficult due to my dad's illness and elderly grandmother. Instead she ended up working 2 jobs to bring money in so that the mortgage could be paid.
I also have a friend who's husband was the main earner on £80,000 a year. They were together since being teenagers. He's just left her for another woman after 25 years together. They have a 16 and 14 year old. My friend works 2 days a week and cannot afford to buy her husband out of the house they have lived in for 15 years. They will have the sell the house (as he wants to invest in another property with new partner) and she's had to go full time. However this will just about cover the rent and bills. She wishes she had trained in something or got a degree so that she could get a better paid job.

I would be worried if my DD wanted to marry someone with no job or prospects as I think that would make life very hard, particularly if they then had kids too. DH and I stressed how important similar values and beliefs are. We had very different upbringings but come from loving, stable families and have very similar values. I think that's what keeps you together and lessens the chance of you growing apart.

However, the advice I have given my DD is to choose a career that she loves and that gives her the flexibility to take time off and return after a career break. I was told to 'reach for the stars' and had a great career but it's just not the kind of job I want to do now I have kids (long hours, away all week, huge levels of corporate BS etc.)

makeourfuture - What's your position on polycotton bedsheets? Iron or no iron? I would generally run an iron over as a matter of course but DW disagrees.

Sorry....mainly clothes-based here...

I can respect it though.

Poor and struggling doesn't equal nice man, any more than rich man automatically equals bastard. I have a relative who has married the loveliest man and he's also a very high earner. Bingo!

Actively aiming for someone already loaded is more problematic, I think. I wouldn't encourage dd to set her sights on a premiership footballer, or one of those blokes on "The Millionaire Matchmaker" if anyone's seen it, because then you are kind of selling yourself in return for a lifestyle. If you wouldn't fancy them if they were a plumber's mate, then being prepared to marry them because they've got £££ is dubious.

Interestingly ds says he wouldn't mind being a SAHD. I've told him that SAHanything is a dying breed and he'll need to find a corporate lawyer wife if he wants to strum his guitar all day and do a bit of hoovering now and again.

Agree also that you can't always tell a person's prospects, career wise, in their early 20s. When my mum met my dad he was "just" a squaddie with no qualifications bar 5 poor O'levels. Within 10 years he was earning well in the private sector and is now on over £80k (excellent money round here). Similarly my DH has more than doubled his salary in the time we've been together (9 years) with a pretty poor degree from a local former poly. While the foundations were there - in my dad's case a strong and single minded work ethic, ambition plus practical skills as a mechanic, and with my DH a willingness to work hard to understand his department from the bottom up and a total lack of showmanship and drama.

OP I had it drummed into me by DM that I would be better off marrying well. However, prob because I was earning decent salary I didn't see it as a priority. I liked DP cos he was clever. DP had ok job with good salary but not in particularly stable career and little qualifications. Unfortunately for various reasons we both now earn less than half of what we used to and our marriage is under a lot of strain. So yes I do sometimes think I could have just married well and been in an equally shitty marriage, but at least money worries wouldn't be a problem. As much as I dont agree with woman marrying for money and it makes me cringe, I would try to encourage DD to do take it into account as well as being independent and maintaining her career.

gree also that you can't always tell a person's prospects, career wise, in their early 20s. When my mum met my dad he was "just" a squaddie with no qualifications bar 5 poor O'levels. Within 10 years he was earning well in the private sector and is now on over £80k (excellent money round here). Similarly my DH has more than doubled his salary in the time we've been together (9 years) with a pretty poor degree from a local former poly. While the foundations were there - in my dad's case a strong and single minded work ethic, ambition plus practical skills as a mechanic, and with my DH a willingness to work hard to understand his department from the bottom up and a total lack of showmanship and drama - luck has played a part. However both men had their minds focussed when DC arrived and grew up a lot. My DH certainly has become more ambitious and focussed.

If you bring up your children to work hard and fill their spare time doing productive and enjoyable activities, they will probably be attracted to somebody of a similar disposition. This person is likely to do well because a good work ethic is worth a lot. All my exes have done very well for themselves as has DH although when we were dating I was not focussing on their future career prospects but on mine. I'm attracted to a certain sort of person – kind hardworking and ambitious – and I expect DDs will be the same though only time will tell.
Blueflowers I have friends in your position and feel for them and you. I am an SAHM despite having a good career before children because childcare costs outweighed my earning power. Virtually all the women I know who have managed to continue with their career have family providing free childcare, not an option for me. Also, all my uni friends with good careers pre DC have gone part time to be mothers. It is ridiculous to ignore the fact that having children takes time and effort and this is not compatible with giving your all to a top-flight career.

I have one friend who works, with a wonderful househusband supporting her and that is fantastic if that's your choice as a couple.

So cast aside love and any other quality in favour of a fat wallet so your daughter can just be a kept woman if she chooses.

It sounds a tad contradictory to say you are a feminist when advocating your daughter becomes financially reliant upon a wealthy man.
Cash does make life easier from a choices viewpoint but shouldn't you be encouraging her to study, do well and get a well paying job herself. Or at the very least encouraging her to be independent and self-supporting financially.

I'll be encouraging both my DD and DS to marry well (or maybe just "partner" well). That's not incompatible with also encouraging them to be ambitious and to do the best they can do. As long as they marry someone who is their equal both intellectually and ideologically then I don't see them going wrong. I don't see how someone can truly love someone who they have little in common with. There's nothing wrong with encouraging them to consider what sort of life they would like to have as grown ups, and it's incredibly naive to think that their choice of partner wouldn't help or hinder that.

People are focusing on the idea that marrying well = marrying a rich bastard so you can sit and eat truffles all day.

I would prefer my DD to marry someone with money while also making money herself so she isn't dependent on him.
Love doesn't conquer all and life is easier if you are wealthy ( I've been poor and now we are comfortable and I know which I prefer)
However, I wouldn't encourage her to marry someone she didn't love or who didn't treat her well just for money.

I think I may be encouraging mine to live in sin now, at least that way if their partner turns out to be lazy and a gold digger (male or female) they can walk away.

I'd like my daughter to find her own place in life with a job she enjoys, if she decided to do nothing and expect others to pay for that choice her education and upbringing would have gone very wrong.

It doesn't have to be a high flying all hours career but girls as well as boys should aim to cover their own expenses plus their children's. Opting out simply because of sex puts us back decades.

My husband was pretty broke when we married and had firstborn in 1 bed flat - now have 5 bed house and I'm a SAHM and he has a very successful and lucrative business.
Friend 'Married well' - now divorced and working and miserable. That's life. The most important things you can give your daughter is confidence and a good education. Beyond that...who knows?

I find it hard to believe anyone can confidently describe themselves as a "staunch feminist" while at the same time advocating marrying for money. The two are mutually exclusive.

It also equates wealth with happiness. Financial success us not the only measure if happiness. Of course poverty is awful and soul destroying but if you've got enough money to cover your needs (food, shelter, bills and a little extra for whatever you think is a treat) anything extra is relative. Not everyone wants to live in a big house, go on expensive holidays, have lots of stuff.

Also, where do women who have no interest in marriage fit in to this scenario? What about successful women who've never married? They do exist.

I had an ex friend visit, look around my house and say she wishes she'd married a rich man . Found it very rude.

I fully believe that I "married well" and I'm now in the position where I work one day a week, only for my sanity not for the pittance I earn! I was raised to do what I want, education, career, partner choice. My parents made sure I knew how to take care of myself and my finances. I always wanted to raise my own children not pay someone else to do it, and I'm very grateful to have landed myself in the situation where that is possible. However, I love my husband dearly, I was attracted to his looks, his personality, his attitude towards his family, his work ethic, his need to solve problems swiftly and earn the respect of his peers, the drive to do well and be the best he can be. All of these things have led him to have a great, well paid career, which he didn't have when we met. I look at some of the bums that my younger sister has dated in the past and I don't see the appeal, the lazy, layabout attitude with no looking to the future or making plans would never have been attractive to me. In the same way that a really rich, but not very nice person with no friends or respect would not have been attractive to me. Marrying well can mean a whole host of things, to me it is marrying someone who you love, who you can talk honestly with, who you can make decisions together with, who cares for his family, who still gives you butterflies 10+ years down the line, and has the means to support you if need be and vice versa.

It doesn't matter how well you marry if you're not content with what you have it will never be enough.

I will encourage my kids to be pragmatic and plan ahead. What kind of life do they want? How much money is needed to make that happen? Etc etc.

It is possible to be a high earning woman, marry a low earning man and both do SAH for a bit if you plan for it, buy a house and live a lifestyle cheap enough when both earning to allow you to save for the 'poor' period and live off those savings. I am amazed by the number of people I know who have children without savings or a feasible long term plan.

I would definitely try and have a chat with my children before marriage, asking them if they've discussed things like standard of living, approach/method of raising children, all those big issues that can cause problems, hoping that they wouldn't marry someone with totally different ideals to them. But as regards SAHM / marrying well - that's only one possible life path, and I really hope they choose their own without looking to parents to tell them how to live their life.

To address OPs question
shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?
No in the 'marry for money' sense but yes in the 'marry to build a happy and comfortable life together, with shared goals and values'.
However there are many ways women can lead fulfilling lives without partnering up and having kids. It was what i wanted but DDs will make their own choices.
I do think everyone needs a dose of pragmatism whatever path they choose.

Good post Batteries. I found the way the OP was presented rather odd - as if "marrying well" is the only path to success/happiness available to women. Which is a very old fashioned and paternalistic way of looking things - with the underlying assumption that women need to be looked after by a man.