AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

I am a feminist but there is no tension between being a feminist and thinking that you if you are going to marry a man, you marry one that contributes. You may want children. You are never going to find a man who will bear children or breastfeed. Being supported materially to do this is the very least you should expect of your husband.

I am single and I do do it all. I resent my ex for dipping in and out of child-related responsibilities, including supporting the family materially, both when we were together and now we are apart. He is very lucky that he gets to have beautiful accomplished healthy confident children, of whom he is rightly proud, while basically pleasing himself for most of his adult life. I would never deny him access to them but I work all hours and I feel like a mug.

Of course women can work. Of course some women can be high earners (though there is still a pay gap, as individuals, some women can do alright for themselves - though not as well as man with the same talents and industry). But why NOT pick someone who is as useful and supportive as you? Why the hell not? (I bitterly ask my 13-years-ago self)

there is definately something to be said for marrying someone who has a well paid job and can give you a more comfortable lifestyle, eg. an easier lifestyle with the choice to work/not work, shop where you like, book holidays without worrying and not have to compromise with everything.

but thats not what marriage is all about, marriage is sharing your life with someone you get on with really well, who has your back no matter what, who cares about you and loves you...and you feel the same about him.

money smoothes an awful lot of paths but it doesn't give you the security someone loving you does.

It's best to build your family with someone whose life goals are compatible with your own. In fact, I woukd say it is essential to do so. Whether or not both adults in a couple work full time will depend on how much of your combined personal resources you wish to devote to raising your children, managing your home(s) and money, to cultural pursuits and hobbies.

Some people with a lot of money live very culturally impoverished lives. It's not as simple as making a lot of money.

• and if you think that support and usefulness is going to come from traditional women's work, forget it. One in a million, if that, will really be able to do that as well as you - and will only be physically able to begin doing it once your child is past breastfeeding age

There are also plenty of men around who don't want a career. We don't encourage them to try and marry well.

Thinking back to just a handful of the threads I've read here where a woman has been terrified of leaving her rich DH because he has promised he'll employ the best lawyers and frame her as an unfit mother - she stays, though she's trapped and unhappy. Pretty much same scenario as at the other end of the economic scale except that the cage is prettier - and more braggable for her DPs.

Shatners for goodness sake, I am single working FT managing two DCs by myself so certainly know what it's like to make it on my own.

Are you saying there aren't women out there who have the privilege of wealth or the benefits of a financial partnership - and that this skews their views? I'm sure most of the women at my DD's school would say 'marry for love, not money' as they drive off in the Range Rovers bought by their husbands!

I can only agree if I can tell my two ds that when they marry, they should marry well, i.e. Ensure that their partner will have the right background, the right qualification and will have the right sort of job, one hat will earn enough money so they can go part time or be a SAHP is they wish to.

As it stands, I don't think that a lot of people will agree with me saying that.....

I have a feeling that where this post has come from is an awareness that in today's economic climate, it really does help to have two people working hard (whether paid or at home). There was a time when middle class men earnt enough not only to materially support a family comfortably, but to buy in help at home as well. You then essentially did have an element of leisure for adults within a family unit - if you were middle class. The work these men did was itself leisurely and easy in many cases.

Middle class feminists who aspired to that life as a woman didn't need to think about what their man earned. Nowadays you don't get access to that life unless you are very unusual, whether you are a man or a woman. If you are a woman you additionally have the pay gap to deal with; the biology of child bearing and baby feeding; and the intractability of men about dealing whole heartedly with anything in the home. Life is a slog without a decent partner.

life is a slog without a decent partner

Yep.

There are also plenty of men around who don't want a career. We don't encourage them to try and marry well

It's got to be unusual I know but there are two stay at home Dads at Dd2 school who are supported by super wealthy wives.

One has flying lessons, they have one dd and housekeeper, gardener etc so even outsourcing the work that would be done traditionally by the stay at home parent.

Xenia supported her husband too and is a high earner.

Hang on, I've 'married well' and I certainly don't 'earn every penny'.
I married for love but the bank balance helped and means we have security, a nice house and lovely holidays. I work because I want to and don't want to be a sahm.
Money makes life easier in my opinion.
It helps that my DH is bloody lovely to boot!!

Has a single poster said that we should tell our DDs to marry for money in preference to ❤️ love - I can't bring myself to trawl through every post but I bet no one has.

Fwiw I don't think it's about marrying well.

It's about marrying with someone who has the same outlook in life, the same sort of interests.
It's about marrying someone who is aiming at a similar lifestyle (yu can see the issue coming when one wants to have two fancy holiday abroad each year and the other one is happy staying at home or going away for a 4 days weekend in the uk)
And marrying someone who isn't going to turn into a coklodger (male or female iyswim)

What it is NOT is a situation where a woman can feel ENTITLED to stay at home if she wants or work part time because 'she might Not want to have career or work that hard' but somehow her DH is
I'm sure you realise that men work shit jobs too, or are in jobs they really don't enjoy but they carry on because they don't have the LUXURY to say 'I can't be bothered'!

For me whatbyou are describing is patriarchy full on. But you are just looking athe parts that are positive for women (which IMO is the reason why partriachy is still well and alive. It does have some advantages for some women...)

When I was living with my exP and he was being a dick I thanked my lucky stars every day that I had not had children until I could make money after childcare. Decently paid work kept me sane and ultimately allowed me to leave him (and buy him out of our house). So I am in no way advocating living off your man as the only or best way. BUT. I wish I had thought harder about how hard my P was prepared to work and chosen better. Being without him is better than being with him, but best of all would be being with someone who wanted to put some work into supporting us all (emotionally as well as materially)

What makes you think rich single men are out there waiting for a woman who offers nothing financially, doesn't want to work etc. Surely most would want an equal so they share it all in true partnership in style, have common goals, be at the same level conversation wise etc.

I can't imagine thinking that working women do it the other way round and look for a lazy non working man.

You'd have to be awfully shallow and selfish to pick a partner based on their bank account and what it allows you to opt out of.

Why would you want to encourage your DD to marry well so that she can be a SAHM? What sort of aim is that to have in life? I will encourage my DDs to work hard, aim high and choose partners that also work hard and that share their goals and values. Strong intelligent women should not be beholden to their husband. It is incredibly important to have your own career, to contribute financially and to keep the balance in your relationship.

rainbows it would definitely be a risk in advising DD's to marry well so they can give up work.

Are there enough young men who will earn enough? A promising start often doesn't turn into a sparkling career. And are there enough young men who want a partner who doesn't want to work?

Bloody he'll.

I too am a single parent. I will be encouraging my children (daughters and son) to find their own happiness and not rely on someone else to provide it. Yes, money potentially makes life easier but you do realise people can be skint and happy, don't you? I have no desire for a part time job and a range rover thanks.

Surely we should be encouraging our daughters to aspire for equality, not make the best of a situation where we are considered less valuable to the men in our lives

Nothing wrong with your primary aim being to have your daughters aim for good careers but a spouse who is a good earner is a bonus. Gives you choices - You can only feasibly have the choice to be a SAHM if there is enough in one salary to cover it.
If he does turn out to be a lying cheating bastard then the ability to earn a good salary on your own is vital though.

Rainbows there was athread recently on here about highflying women.
The general comment is that before, wifes were the 'trophey wife' beautiful etc... but staying at home to allow their DH to have a go at their fantastic career.
Nowdays the 'trophey wife' is the one who has a career at a similar level and is just as successful as the guy.

So the best way you can encourage your dd to marry well etc... is do extremely well herself.... that will give her more chances.

OP I think what you meant to say was:

*I know 'marrying well' is something our fathers and grandfathers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-meninist sentiment in a world where men can do well without women.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our sons to do. Why? Because not every man wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHD then really that's easiest if your DW is well paid. *

OP, you keep saying that "not every female" can have a high-flying career, earn over 60k, etc.

That's true. There just aren't enough jobs in that salary bracket for EVERYONE to have one, even if everyone did have the requisite skills.

Similarly, there just aren't enough MEN earning over 60k for every women to marry. If your solution is that daughters should be "encouraged" to marry someone above a certain earning threshold, then where are they going to find all these rich, eligible men, keen to take on a wife?

You keep saying that you are just being realistic about the choices women face, but I think your "marry a rich man" solution is pretty unrealistic there aren't enough of those floating about. Our daughters would be unwise to rely on the earning power of their partners as their top strategy for success in life on a purely pragmatic level, by the time they find out if they've been unsuccessful, it might be a bit late to go back and start their career.

You keep alluding to how difficult you find being single from a financial point of view - any chance you're projecting a bit? "If only I had a rich husband, everything would be fine, etc"?

My impression of the OP was that she wasn't talking about people in ordinary fairly well paid jobs marrying each other but that if you have a daughter who is not ambitious and doesnt want to bother with having an education, instead of telling her that life is hard with poor qualifications so she doesnt have a choice but to get them, you tell her to marry a rich man. That is terrible advice, not least because, as others have said, there are not many men earning enough to support a sahm queuing up in Sainsburys to fall in love with the checkout assistant. You should be telling your daughter that she may not have the choice of being a sahm, even if she wants to, so she should educate herself and not rely on things she can't control.

It's got to be unusual I know but there are two stay at home Dads at Dd2 school who are supported by super wealthy wives.

I know it happens, but I've never been aware of a boy's parents encouraging it!

There is a man in my street who divorced his barrister wife and got the house and has spent the last several years glued to a games console in his front room. He's practically an art installation at this point...

"It's incredibly important to have your own career, to contribute financially and keep the balance in your relationship".

Even where that can be achieved, it's so often a precarious balance, at the woman's expense.

I totally agree with AntiGrinch on this. The idea that men will naturally and instinctively step up to 50/50 childcare is a myth. It's not about marrying for money, but always far better to marry a man with a responsible attitude towards providing for his family. Otherwise, you'll be doing it all alone.