AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

I don't think that was what OP was saying at all :) it's about recognising that as much as we are told one thing, society is set up in the opposite way. Destinys Child might warble about independent women and that's all well and good if you're Beyoncé Knowles but

House I live in? I bought it

in particular is not hugely realistic.

I know it happens, but I've never been aware of a boy's parents encouraging it!

I have definitely heard it as 'banter' at the rugby club.

I have never heard of a parent encouraging their daughter to 'marry well' either though. I suppose it must all be done behind closed doors.

tiger I'm not projecting - I'm proud of getting by on my own and don't spend my evenings wishing I'd married better.

I don't think getting my daughters to marry well is the solution, but it may be for some. Frankly just GETTING MARRIED and having a double income is a huge factor in improving people's lifestyles. We can't deny that and I find it frustrating that women wax on about being independent while they enjoy the fruits of a mutually beneficial financial partnership.

I don't assume that there are lots of wealthy men out there but equally a lot of people on this thread assume their DDs are going to 'reach for the stars' and will all be successful and have 'careers'. If one's DD ends up making 10k pa, as their parent you think you won't hope that they'll meet someone to help support them? Or are you happy for your DD to live as a single woman in poverty just because of the principle of it.

I think that like should marry like. I'm single, and earn reasonably well (£55,000, but this is in the SE so I'm certainly not rich). I have a decent pension and I'm saving for a deposit. To me, marrying well would mean marrying someone who was similar to me - ambitious and financially sensible. Not a cocklodger, but I wouldn't want to be a vadgelodger either. My idea is that I would meet someone probably earning similarly to me, and we would make a decent life for ourselves by pooling our incomes and doing things together. I expect to always have to work even if I have children, and likewise, I would expect that my husband would always aim to work. Neither of us would have more power than the other and we'd work as a team. That's my idea of "marrying well".

I will encourage all my children to marry/cohabit with someone who loves them, values them, appreciates them and is a decent, hard working, respectful person. I will also encourage my children to be that kind of person themselves. The most important foundation (and I speak as a person who has always had MW jobs, and who's partner has always worked extremely hard in MW jobs and only recently has had the opportunity to have a much better paid job) of any relationship is trust, teamwork, love and respect. You could be a billionaire but if you didn't have those things life would be shit.
I want my kids to find the kind of relationship DP and I have. Where money makes things easier, but we were still happy without.

"Why would you want to encourage your DD to marry well so that she can be a SAHM? What sort of aim is that to have in life? "

My mum was a SAHM with a husband who had a job which made a proper career for her difficult (he was a diplomat and my family travelled). Neither of my parents was educated beyond the age of 16 and that also made an independent life hard for my mother.

So was her life meaningless? I don't think so. She created a blissful home life for us as children, had a great marriage, fantastic friendships, and is now as a widow 20 years into a happy retirement, funded by my dad's civil service pension.

I suppose that had she ground herself to dust working 40 hours a week while still trying to care for us and run a home her life would be considered more successful?

Note: most jobs are not interesting and meaningful, most jobs aren't well paid, many women (and probably many men if they had a chance) enjoy looking after their own children and feel they do it better than a nursery or a childminder.

It's sad that a life like my mums is now looked down on.

I do think the middle class way is STUPID but mini I think the point is your own mothers life was something of a luxury. Not meaningless of course but for my part, coming to terms with boredom was a big thing.

minifingerz some of the judgements made about SAHM are appalling. Lazy, leeches, entitled etc.

I advanced searched a couple, if the SAHM do nothing, why do they outsource the 'work' or have a housekeeper

to be honest a lot of the women claiming to marry for love also seem to have wealthy DH so they obviously got lucky and found both.
My daughter said she would marry donald trump for his money maybe I should be worried!
tbh I'd probably marry him to!☺

windy the point is that you wouldn't be saying any of this about your children if they were male. You wouldn't say, its okay not to have a career and aspire to being a stay at home dad.

You wouldn't be saying you think you'll advice your sons against marrying a woman who doesn't earn enough, in case it means they won't be able to take 10 years out of his career to bring up their kids.

That is why the message is anti-feminist. Because it is a message solely aimed at women.

When men are as likely as women to be primary carers, to be swanking around in expensive cars bought for them by their wives, to be replaced with a newer model trophy husband, to be trapped in financially abusive situations etc. etc. THEN it will cease being sexist to tell your daughters they should aim to marry well. (although it will still be shit advice due to the majority of the above).

It's a silly myth that the only valuable work is paid work, let alone well paid work.

When a child is young of course you encourage them to reach for the sky, but if you have an adult daughter in a very low paid job it might make sense to encourage her to think of her future financial security when meeting men.

Isn't this what they used to call 'gold-digging'?

My husband 'married well', as my salary has indeed enabled him to be a SAHD for 5 years.

Does that means I failed to marry well?

Not sure you should be bracketing in SAHPing and PT work here OP.

I can see that to be a SAHP for any length of time, there needs to be sufficient money to fund that. In some cases the SAHP will have their own pre-existing wealth to use, but in the majority of cases it's going to be the working partner. Particularly as upcoming benefit changes potentially make it much more difficult for lower income couples to choose this.

BUT... in order to work PT, you often need the other partner to contribute more than money. You may need them to offer their time, their effort with general house and family management too. It's not necessarily like being a SAHP where it's possible to have a very clear division of labour and responsibilities, with one doing everything domestic and one doing everything income wise.

I have worked PT now for several years, sometimes in relatively senior positions sometimes not, with a blend of employed and contracting stuff. Love it and wouldn't change it. But I know for certain that at some points, it most likely wouldn't have been possible if I had 'married well' as you seem to define it. Because those kind of careers are more likely to require a lot more from the worker than my DH gives. True that I couldn't necessarily do what I do if he weren't reasonably well paid. But I do know that I also couldn't do it without him having been willing to downgrade a bit so we could have a more equal arrangement.

I'm not saying this is always necessary for part time work, there are PT workers who also do everything domestic too. We are stricter about work life balance than most. And there's part time and part time. But for me personally, the sort of part time career I want and have couldn't exist if I'd married someone who had 'aimed for the sky'.

Personally I'd advise my children and any in the family, of either sex, to try and ensure they have a means to support themselves that allows flexibility. And not to get locked into a lifestyle requiring a high income before children.

I don't assume that there are lots of wealthy men out there but equally a lot of people on this thread assume their DDs are going to 'reach for the stars' and will all be successful and have 'careers'. If one's DD ends up making 10k pa, as their parent you think you won't hope that they'll meet someone to help support them? Or are you happy for your DD to live as a single woman in poverty just because of the principle of it.

The question is what's the right thing to hope for here.

As a feminist I just don't think "I hope my daughter meets a man who can financially support her" is the right thing here.

You're presenting your argument as live in poverty vs find Prince Charming to make everything better which is massively oversimplifying real life.

OP I can't believe you are suggesting we should encourage our daughters to marry someone rich so they can go part time/be a SAHM (as if that is the holy grail for women everywhere) and then questioning why there are so few female CEOs! Strange logic.

I'll be encouraging my DD and any future DC (male or female) to marry someone they love who loves them back, respects them, works hard and is kind.

it's sad that a life like my mum's is now looked down on

Yes.

And it is so very short-sighted of society to look down on mothers who devote their energies and resources to raising healthy, well-educated and productive DC in homes where behaviour that have been honed for centuries are transmitted through the generations. Family life and the role of the household in a stable society are sidelined at huge cultural expense to humanity.

I guess there is no problem in being honest with a person you are in a relationship with and intending to marry, that your ambition is to be a stay at home mother, if that's what it is - but realistically, I think life does not always work that way, and my own advice to my daughter would be to find someone who makes her happy, respects her and shares enough of her ambitions and views that you'll be able to make things work, even if it means compromising occasionally.

I would like to be a SAHM, but I earn significantly more than my husband, so that would not work for us. However, I would hate to think my daughter could miss out on the amazing relationship I have, just because she couldn't look past a difference in earnings. As long as there is a true partnership and true love there - you will make it work and you will be happy. This what I would want my daughter to take away from her parents relationship if nothing else.

If one's DD ends up making 10k pa, as their parent you think you won't hope that they'll meet someone to help support them?

I would hope the daughter could make changes to earn more, or that I as their parent could help with a deposit on a house etc. I wouldn't be wishing for a random man to come and fix it.

Also OP I don't think it's very helpful to be generalising about property prices and averages. The fact is there are loads of areas of the UK where you can get something easily on a 30k salary. Equally, that 200k average price won't go very far at all in others. The difficulty tends to be earning that 30k salary in or sufficiently near to somewhere that sub 100k properties abound. But this is a totally different conversation in the south east to everywhere else.

Purple, I suppose it's about recognising that struggling through life on a low income alone is not really the Beyoncé Knowles ideal of 'I depend on me.'

Society is set up assuming two people working. There are many deviations from this but that's still how society assumes you are. Therefore to NOT be set up like this and not to earn more than average wage, can be difficult.

It's not about looking down on mothers. It's about saying

a) the solution is to be dependent on a man

b) if you are a woman you should have the choice not to be terribly ambitious and still enjoy family life but men shouldn't have that choice

The OP specifically stated that not all women are ambitious and suggested marrying well as an alternative, but is going to tell her dd not to marry a man who doesn't have high earning potential (so the man has no alternative). She was not just talking about women's earnings being screwed by society, but specifically mentioned not being ambitious as a valid female (but not male) choice. That's where we get onto dodgy grounds. Not least because nobody might want to marry the OP's dds- and then, with an attitude like that, they will be well and truly screwed.

"As a feminist I just don't think "I hope my daughter meets a man who can financially support her" is the right thing here. "

As a feminist, I hope that both of my daughters meet a person who can support them in every way, as they will support their partners in turn. If that is what they want I think it is how they will be most comfortable.

I think there is huge denial on here about the default split of labour in families between men and women when women WOH. Huge.

• not that I have only just noticed this. It's a feature of mn.

"It's just a few pans, who cares?"
"Give the guy a break!"
"Men don't see [x]"
"you have to let him do it his way. A bit of nappy rash isn't the end of the world."
"OP, why come complaining on here when you coudl have just [covered for the man's laziness yourself at the same time as doing every other damn thing]"

etc

"If one's DD ends up making 10k pa, as their parent you think you won't hope that they'll meet someone to help support them?"

What if my son ends up making 10k pa- has he got the right to expect a woman to support him?

What if my dd does not want children or turns out to be incapable of having children- can she still claim the right to be supported by a man with a good work ethic simply because she is female?