AIBU to think we should encourage our daughters to 'marry well'?

[windygallows]

I know 'marrying well' is something our mothers and grandmothers crowed about but it's not a phrase I've heard much these days and it feels quite an anti-feminist sentiment in a world where women can do well without men.

Yet I wonder if marrying well - marrying into money or marrying someone who is in a well-paid profession - is something we should be encouraging our daughters to do. Why? Because not every woman wants to have a career and if you want to be a SAHM then really that's easiest if your DH is well paid. Also women still experience a pay gap and are in lower-paid roles by comparison, so having a well paid DH really does make up that pay gap.

Plus - when I look around at my female friends and peers (I'm mid-40s) of the ones who have a comfortable lifestyle and are able to work part-time or be SAHM, for about 3/4 that lifestyle is attributed to having a well-paid or wealthy DH. The other 1/4 got there through their work/career, family money etc. This is purely a sample of my peers, by no means the norm.

I'm a staunch feminist so it's a bit hard to write this but I'm also a single parent and know what a slog it can be making everything work on my own salary. Marrying well doesn't mean a good marriage or relationship but it does make things easier. In the end shouldn't we be having an honest conversation with our daughters about this and encouraging them to think a bit more about 'marrying well'?

Nursing is a proper job with a degree qualification attached. I'm puzzled by the idea that it's like doing shop work and cleaning. It's starting wage is considerably higher than minimum wage (I appreciate it's not a good salary for the responsibility) and there are opportunities for promotion. I have friends who nurse who have masters qualifications, research specialisms and teach.

" Realistically, though, there are very few cleaners or care assistants who find a rich man to support them."

Really rich, I'm sure there aren't, but earning more than them I'm sure there are loads. Men with no education still have physical strength that can help them earn more than women. Bin men used to be paid more than teaching assistants in some areas, for example.

"Nursing is a proper job with a degree qualification attached. I'm puzzled by the idea that it's like doing shop work and cleaning. "

Who said that? I think that what people are saying is that it's lower paid and lower status than being a doctor.

"I have friends who nurse who have masters qualifications, research specialisms and teach."

I have a friend who's got the old qualification so no degree and is of the opinion that nurses should do more cleaning!

Don't know how accurate it is, this is an American survey of social statistics from 2014.

Female Physicians and Surgeons partner with
Physicians and SurgeonsPhysicians and Surgeons

Male Physicians and Surgeons partner with
Physicians and SurgeonsRegistered NursesElementary and Middle School TeachersPostsecondary TeachersRegistered Nurses

Yes, nursing is degree qualification, many have masters, some PhD.

I grew up poor and decided I wouldn't be ever again.

So I got a job that paid very well and married a man who also earned a lot.

We've rubbed long nicely .

I tell both my son and my daughter that life is expensive and you need to earn a lot to access much of the good stuff. They also know what you have to do to get said money ( good and bad).

I also tell them that IMVHO its best to be in relationships with similar minded folk.

But I also warn them about gold diggers as they'll have quite a bit of family money in due course.

smilingsarahb

I think people on here see nursing (and teaching) as a low paid job because their idea of a good salary is hugely skewed in a London/SE/big job in Law/finance bubble when the reality is that for most of the country, nurses do earn a reasonable/decent salary (not saying it's a lot for the hours/conditions etc) but the amount of money allows a good lifestyle in many parts of the country inclduing being able to buy property and is more than a lot of people earn.

The minimum starting salary for a nurse is around £22k plus extra for shift work and high cost areas where relevant. Many nurses will be on £30-40k after a few years, similar for teachers.

From the point of view of shopworkers, cleaners or careworkers, it's not a low paid profession at all.

"It is not possible for every woman to marry a high earning man."

It's not possible for everyone to have a highly paid job either, which is what most people on here are suggesting.Even if we become a knowledge society, someone will still have to work on the bins.

NO! We should be telling our DD's to aim for the fucking sky so they are able to support themselves

This ^

You can "marry well" and decide to be a SAHM, and be left, out of the work place, reliant on a man who clearly doesn't want to be relied on.

Or he could get ill.

Or he could become a gambler, an alcoholic.

Never.Give.Up.Your.Job.

Marrying well = choosing a person that you love, who loves you, always treats you well, and will be a true partner to you.

This a thousand times. Finances mean nothing if you marry an asshole. It's just a bigger climb down when you have to get out.

Well my mum always encouraged me to marry well...I kind of rebelled when I was younger and went out with people she would have hated.

Ended up with DP who earns just over national average, DM doesn't really care anymore.

There was a report that came out recently that said that now more doctor marry other doctors. Now that over 50% of doctors are women, it's going to become more likely. I agree that nursing is also a degree level profession, but the pay is much lower, so even if you encourage your daughter to go into nursing to catch a hansome doctor, she's going to have to do a hell of a lot of work for not much pay in a job she only want to do temporarily so she can get a man and stay at home. And they might already be married to the local GP, who is a high earner herself! Maybe live in a tent and send her to a posh public school so she can be thrown in the way of inherited wealth, or encourage her to educate herself as well as she can and marry someone equally as educated and ambitious as her, and see where life takes her rather than assuming she'll want to be a sahm or be dependent on a man!

Rather assumes every woman wants to be a SAHM which I highly doubt. Many woman don't, I can't think of anything worse than being so lazy and expecting somebody else to fund me. I'd not be impressed if either of my children, regardless of sex, thought that it was ok to do that either. Neither would I want either of them having a partner that was a leech as another poster put it.

Women can and do do well in the workplace, the only reason we haven't yet closed the pay gap is because many still subscribe to the ridiculous notion that you can't parent and work.

School, college and universities all teach children and young adults that they can achieve what they like, how sad is it that for some that just means finding a partner with a big bank account so they don't have to bother doing anything.

Stay at home parents are not lazy.

My children will all be taught the same.
Work hard, be nice, try not to fall in love with a dickhead.

That's essentially my parenting plan

I was brought up to believe I could achieve anything I wanted.
Any limitation in place was firmly my fault - not wanting to move away from home etc.
I agree that lots of society don't see past some titles/projected incomes.

I was regularly told how 'lucky' I was and how I'd 'landed on my feet' with DH.
How demeaning!

Not only is it the reverse - I'm fucking fabulous, but I can also bring in much more than him many months whilst doing absolutely everything for the children with no help from him. Yeah - lucky me eh

So 'marrying well' = man in well-paid job. So choosing a man who wanted to be a stay at home dad and not have a 'career' wouldn't be marrying well.
This is fine for women to aspire to, but not men? Are you saying these men will be 'marrying down' if your daughters don't aspire to have a career, or just that this label only applies to men?

Personally I think this is a pretty appalling thing to convey to your daughters. Yes, women are disgustingly paid less than men for doing the same roles, and there are much fewer in executive positions but encouraging women to avoid having a career because of this does nothing to help the situation and just perpetuates the issues.
How about encouraging them to decide for themselves what drives them, what motivates them and what they want to achieve in life?

In a lot of fields they are likely to face greater challenges than the equivalent man but that doesn't mean it's a reason not to do their best to crack any glass ceiling and change things for the better.

I hope they see the increasing number of female role models out there in business and all industries and see your advice for the total backwards nonsense it is. I hope they find partners, men or women, who they love and adore regardless of their pay packet.

Also the irony of you calling yourself a 'staunch feminist'. LOL.

Catscurledup - thanks for your posts. They are exactly what I'm getting at.

And for those who balk at a minimum 60k income needed to do well as a single woman, yes there will always be examples of people who bought houses on a 30k income etc. But the average property price in the UK is over £200k and it can be hard to save for a downpayment. Even a flat or small house at 160k will cost you 700 pounds/month on the lowest interest rate. But this has been discussed many times on Mumsnet. I make over 50k and after mortgage and childcare I am skint.

I just think some women posting here are coming from a place of privilege - lucky, or canny enough, to (a) be in a mutually financially beneficial partnership and (b) to have successful DH's and assuming it will 'all work out' for their DDs as well.

reactive some are some aren't.

They're a mixed bunch.

It's interesting that when I started to hang out with posh types at uni there was definitely an expectation that the boys at least would get a well-paid job and raise a family with the same lifestyle they had growing up. Private school etc. I know a couple who turned down PHDs etc to go into the City because of that expectation. I guess falling out of the class they'd been born in was a worse prospect than not doing something they loved.

The type these boys married were usually medics or lawyers, academic high achievers. I don't think there were a lot of slots available for girls without ambitions.

bacon I am a feminist and an active one as well. I posed the question, I wasn't suggesting that telling our DDs to marry well was the best course of action. But for some women, not all women, but some it may be the best way for them to have security in life.

reactive some are some aren't

They're a mixed bunch

Just like paid workers then.

Agree. I don't want to be a sahm either. It never even occurred to me. I did feel like the odd one out a bit in playgroups because I was working (bit nappy valley, full of sahms with city husbands, while we are both teachers, and not even the really highly paid sort, adult ed) but just before I left to go to a saner part of the country, those same women with now school aged children were telling me how 'lucky'I was to be able to have flexible hours and good pay while they were feeling left behind and bored while the kids and husband were moving on with their lives. I didn't point out to them that my flexible hours and good pay came not out of luck, but because of my 10 years unbroken service record, paid for with years of their pitying looks and comments to my children because their lovely childminder took them to playgroups instead of me 3 days a week!

My mum was a bit like that! No guarantee of happiness though but you can be skint and miserable.

Yes, I see friends who married high fliers and have big house, kids, dogs, amazing holidays several times a year, don't work, have time to get their mail and hair done... And I think, wouldn't that be nice?

Of course.

I get where you're coming from, I really do. First and foremost, I want my children to marry for love, marry someone who will respect them and treat them very well. I also expect them to get the best education they can so that they can provide for themselves and their families. But when I look around my friends, life has been so much harder for the ones who married someone on a low-paid job with very little ambition. They've ended up in a trap of working in low-paid work themselves in order to fit around their children's education, and it is a shame because everything is a struggle when your finances are tight. But they are still happy with their choices.

On the other hand, some friends who 'married well' in the sense of marrying a high earner, are laughing - live in huge houses in the SE, children privately educated etc. But I don't know if they're really happy - they have to keep earning loads to stay where they are and it's impossible to get off the treadmill. They feel the need to keep up with their friends in the career/ house/ car / holiday stakes etc. One friend who 'married very well' (city banker) spent over a decade in a very abusive relationship before breaking free from him with her children.

I'm somewhere in the middle, DH a middle earner, we own a house in a cheap area and haven't stretched ourselves financially so that I could SAH (though starting to do some PT work, which I can be selective about). Whilst I'm sometimes envious of the big house in a nice area, my 'well married' friends hardly ever see their husbands as they live to work, and I would take my kind, attentive, present husband any day over that.

"I just think some women posting here are coming from a place of privilege"

More wise words from the active feminist. Can't POSSIBLY have actually been out there and earned their own money and still have such views. Ridiculous.

Yet another thread for the Daily Fail methinks