'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

convoluted justifications why women are victims.

So, if a man with a poorer track record is promoted ahead of a woman with a better CV, it's a convoluted justification?

"rejected it unconditionally because everyone else apart from STFU was giving it a free pass."

Actually, the reason I didn't comment on it at the time was because I thought mermaid sounded very distressed and it did not seem appropriate in the context of the thread to take it up with her. You can call that "giving it a free pass" if you like.

Interesting that you resort to "personalities" in your response, by the way, rather than actually discussing my post.

Do you like men or are you constantly on the lookout for some percieved wrongdoing? It must be exhausting.

Ah, diverting, which is a nice tactic when arguing for a flat earth.

"Do you like men or are you constantly on the lookout for some percieved wrongdoing?"

I like nice men. Just like I like nice women.

Not sure how the two parts of your sentence work together!

I don't think the problem is whether feminists like men, is whether (some) men like feminists (in the sense of equality of sexes).

We all know that many men don't like women, let alone feminists.

It is extraordinary, this "oh, you're a feminist, you must hate men" line.

I think it shows that male privilege is so entrenched that it just looks like normal. So any challenge to it must be an attack on men, rather than on the system.

That's obfuscating to say 'do you like men?'

Inequalities exist and decent men who are confident can acknowledge this.

Exactly BertrandRussell. If one questions a structure which places women second then it is all about women's 'hatred' for men!?
why don't men all question the structure.
cos it's comfy up there.

I disagree with your view point that there was a kernel of truth in what Mermaids was saying. I cannot see how anyone can come to the extreme view that marriage is a form of prostitution.

Mermaid may well be extremely unhappy with her relationships but to extend her personal circumstances to be a universal experience is illogical and false.

I wonder how many times I've been told "anecdote is not data"

Exactly BertrandRussell. If one questions a structure which places women second then it is all about women's 'hatred' for men!?

Supporting the view there is a kernel of truth in the idea that all marriage is prostitution seems hateful to both men and women.

Oh as for being personal view your remark about the need to have to refute that statement was directed personally to me. That is why I responded to you.

Lass- you obviously didn't read the rest of my post which explained more about what I meant by the "kernel of truth". Happy to expand.

I did read your post Bertrand I still disagree with what you said.

There is an interesting discussion to be had here, but a lot prefer to duck it.

Firstly, there are many areas of society which are sexist, some in either direction. Secondly, there is a difference between fighting for equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome (the 'lean in' theory is the former). Finally, there is a discussion as to whether men and women (on average) do want exactly the same things....the idea of gendered behaviour being purely a 'social construct' or at least somewhat innate.

The City, for instance, is sexist against women. Been there, done that and had to actually argue for a female employee being paid the same for the same job (a while ago but not that long). However, against this, education is becoming more sexist against men (ar least in terms of outcome) with a full 15% more women being university educated than men. There are almost no male teachers in primary, seriously failing young boys without a positive male role model. The gender pay gap is only significant from late 30s onwards, when babies come in to the equation. But, again, some women elect and enjoy staying at home, thus taking themselves out of the workforce (I know many of these and they were successful and high earning).

I think in the first world women have many things still to fight for but, so, increasingly, do men.

Lass try denying your husband sex becasue you dont feel like it or you are ill and see what happens. Guaranteed he'll be off in a year or shagging someone else.
It is expected that we have to have sex with our partners, what we want doesn't really come into it. Some women might think sex is great and have no problem doing it all the time, others not so much.
If you are a not so much and do it becasue you have to or there is an expectation that you must then you are not and never will be truly free as a woman.
I know I've had a bad time with men but my comments are not all about that - it is about many years experience in talking to women and listening to their experiences.
I personally would rather be single and just have male friends and maybe the occasional lover than feel obliged to have sex when I don't want to with a man just because we live in the same house or I have a ring on my finger.
As far as I'm concerned that ring might as well be a dog collar.

Actually, the reason I didn't comment on it at the time was because I thought mermaid sounded very distressed and it did not seem appropriate in the context of the thread to take it up with her. You can call that "giving it a free pass" if you like

Yup Bertrand, not distressed the he has gone but that he wants £100,000 of my money when he has not paid one penny of the mortgage ever and has sat on his arse for the last 21 years. Surprisingly I don't hate men, I may take a lover at some point but he sure as hell isn't moving in

There are almost no male teachers in primary,

Curiously, probably because it's seen as less prestigious than secondary education.
Maybe pay increases would help.

Leweji, interesting that you think my opinion is not valid because I don't agree with you.
Your 'facts' are your interpretation on a given situation, I have a different interpretation, but not as valid, apparently.
I'll leave you are Bert to discuss among yourselves as any deviation to your agenda is clearly not welcome or, indeed, valid.
But I will leave you with this real-life scenario that I was involved with a couple of years ago, and I would be interested in your interpretation of it.
I own a business and about three years ago, was recruiting staff. I interviewed one woman who was around 35, and was reminded beforehand by HR that I was not allowed to even allude to childcare arrangements, as it is considered sexist to assume the woman is responsible for childcare, so any discussion of the practicalities was completely off-limits. I have no problem with this whatsoever.
The women gets the job, school hours to accommodate the children she is not responsible for, apparently.
Fast forward two years, it is necessary to change her hours to accommodate our new working pattern.
I am advised by HR that she may have a claim for indirect sexism as it us recognised that women are generally responsible for childcare, therefore changing her hours may he deemed to be discriminating against women.
So ... What's it to be? Can women be assumed to be mainly responsible for childcare or not? If so, what's the problem with asking at interview, in the sane way as you would ask if a long commute was a problem?
If not, how can changing hours be indirect sexism?
Or us it a case of when things go wrong, it's nice to he able to claim sexism and be a victim?

Lack of male teachers in primary - its because the ones who do Primary tend to stick together. My Dc had at least 3 or 4 all the way through their Primary school, but I know other schools without one. And I know one friend who trained to teach Primary was made to feel a bit uncomfortable on teaching practises (lots of comments about toilet seats) - he now teaches in a Prep school.
But this is why men need feminism - it's hard to be a minority.

Mermaidinthesea123 - I think you have a negative view of men or bad experiences.

I'm not saying your opinion is not valid.
Just disagreeing that anyone's opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

And since I linked valid opinions with facts, are you saying you're not basing your opinions on facts? Just feelings?

Your 'facts' are your interpretation on a given situation, I have a different interpretation, but not as valid, apparently.

No. Facts are facts. Opinion is the interpretation.
The problem is that you listed random non-facts to justify your opinion.
But maybe you'd care to post some actual examples to justify your opinion.

I think there should be more men in primary teaching too. Any ideas why there aren't?

"A man is portrayed in advertising as useless around the house - that's amusing. A woman is portrayed as being competent - that's outrageous sexism."

But who is responsible for the advertising?

www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2016/feb/03/how-advertising-industry-fails-women

The article states that:

"In the advertising industry, however, there are very few female creative directors making the adverts that women see. In 2008, just 3.6% of the world’s creative directors were female. Since then it has tripled to 11%; in London, my research shows, the figure is about 14% – still shockingly low."

There are many men who collude in anti man sexism (it is hip and trendy and 'proves' your feminist credentials), just as many women collude in sexism and misogyny.

Still does not make a sexist ad any less sexist.

I think it's interesting that the lack of men in primary teaching gets mentioned in the context of things men are obliged to fight for, as if there's been a historical precedent of men being excluded from the profession, which we're only starting to redress. Or as if the applications and assessment process has been biased against men, with their achievements given less weight and their future performance assumed to be lower than that of women. Or as if the workplace 'feminised' to an extent to which they feel unable to function there: harrassed, isolated, not taken as seriously as their female peers.

As far as I know, there was a majority of male primary school teachers in the post-war period. They were paid more than their female colleagues (because they'd have families to support) and women were expected to leave the profession upon marriage (because they'd have families to support). 'Talk and chalk' teaching was encouraged, as was rigorous discipline and very structured learning. Equal pay became more of an issue in the sixties, and that's when the gender imbalance shifted the other way.

Today, it's not the case that the primary school environment is hostile towards male teachers. The opposite: they're welcomed by parents and children, they're assumed to have leadership ambitions, they're 'presumed to be competent and confident in many elements of their practice, which may need to be 'proved' more demonstrably for female teachers' (quote from a male primary teacher).

The sticking point seems to be that this is seen as a women's profession, and therefore is lower prestige and an incongruous (even charitable) choice of field for a man to enter. And that's not women's fault. Nor is the toxic masculinity culture that classifies any job which involves nurturing, young kids, or mopping up snot and tears as a woman's thing.

I think it would be great if there were more male primary school teachers, but I don't understand why it invariably crops up on feminism threads as a counterpoint about the struggles men face. It's not women keeping men out of primary school teaching. The solution is effectively a PR campaign in which we seek to persuade would-be male teachers to overcome their reservations about entering a field which is suspiciously full of women and must therefore be lower-level. 'Men, come along! We promise this isn't just for ladies, and is therefore worthy of your consideration!'

cathf I have made a similar point in another thread, and it didn't go down well at all.
It struck me that the law is back to front. The sex equality legislation and the case law that follows is asking the lines of "women must be allowed flexibility for childcare reasons". But this then has the knock on effect that in the eyes of the law, and employers, and men and women themselves, that childcare/ primary parenting is "women's work" and the cycle is perpetuated again.
Twelve years ago when I had my first child I asked for and was granted flexible hours. My husband made the same request and his boss laughed in his face.
When we had our youngest in 2014 we split the maternity leave. He got it but his firm (a different one) treated his request with amusement, then astonishment. He was told several times "no man has ever made this request before". Had I not been so insistent he would have given up.