'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

Stfu's arguments are so easy to demolish that they're doing the opposite of what I presume they're hoping to achieve!

"The reason for using the inaccurate word "minority" is that it insidiously suggests that in some sense women are a smaller, less important group, that they don't require as many resources or as much representation. Most people still have enough of an awareness of the actual etymological meaning of minority to be influenced by it if even subconsciously. Language matters."

Wow, yes! This explains so much!!

Have come back to thread to see Bertrand still asking the same, entirely reasonable question she posed at the outset.
Your question is logical, Bertrand. The person you are putting it to is not. Therein lies the problem. But I admire your persistence.

Atenco
Off the top of my head, being able to report a rape without being put into jail for adultery would make me put the UK above certain Middle Eastern countries for Womens' rights. Yes we're still not where we need to be but surely we beat that?

being able to report a rape without being put into jail for adultery would make me put the UK above certain Middle Eastern countries for Womens' rights

And yet the vast majority of rapes don't get reported because victims don't feel believed, victims are still blamed for their rape, the ones that do get reported don't often see the inside of a court room and fewer still end in conviction. I wouldn't say that's necessarily better. I'd say that's just different.

" being able to report a rape without being put into jail for adultery would make me put the UK above certain Middle Eastern countries for Womens' rights."

And yet we have the case of Shana Grice who was fined for wasting police time when she reported being harassed by her ex - who then went on to murder her.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-39363003

The judge in this case quoted as saying, "In other words, she was treated as the wrongdoer and having committed a criminal offence, and Michael Lane was treated as the victim."

Is this really so very different?

So many examples still of sexism - the man whose prison sentence was suspended because it would have impacted on his (fictional) cricket career being the most recent one.
Unfortunately I know plenty of women under 30 who think the battles have been won.

Windy that case is awful, shocking and thankfully far more rare nowadays thanks to the work done with women's groups and the police.
Hopefully the IPCC will come down like a ton of bricks on them.

Cricketer was a fucking joke!

Re: Middle East area - I have a client who has had to convince her husband to come back to the UK so she can leave him, she was so terrified that he would be (as a native) granted custody of their child as has just happened to her colleague.
Once their marriage is dissolved there - she would have a huge reduction in rights.
In the U.K. women - are able to drive, are allowed an education past a certain age.
FGM is far from legal, can vote, can compete in sports, can wear what they wish, can have male friends.

I agree that there is a LOT of work to be done here but I remain unconvinced that we're on a par with the measures displayed in the Middle East.
Happy to be educated otherwise though

There is only one country in the entire world where women are not allowed to drive. Educational levels among women are generally very high in Muslim countries. But yes, every country and culture has its downside, especially for poor women, including the UK.

Of course feminism is still necessary. But publicly declaring you're a feminist goes very much against female socialization, so I think it's entirely understandable that many women either never explore the issue or hold feminist views but only express them when it feels safe to do so.

Also, modern third wave feminism, with its bizarre beliefs - that any choice a woman makes is empowering, that feminism must centre men and transwomen, that what are called cis women are comfortable with femininity - is, I'm sure, damaging the image of feminism.

I belong to a gender critical feminist group, and of course we're all second wavers. We very frequently get new members, who post after often lurking for some time, absorbing what is said, burnt out with the kind of crap sites like Everyday Feminism churn out, who are so relieved to have found feminism that makes sense, is a coherent philosophy. The many disadvantages of third wave feminism stem from its basis in pomo and its subsequent lack of class analysis, plus the extension of the movement to concern itself with umpteen other groups, thus diluting its strength to no more than a taste in the water. It's not actually feminism at all, and has nothing to offer women.

So yes, we need feminism, the robust thinking of the second wave.

STFU is very aggressive but Mermaid's comments about marriage and every woman being expected to trade sex for commodities are as bad as anything STFU is saying.

What else is marriage except the swapping of commodities for sex, a kind of prostitution

Facinating that out of the whole thread it's mermaid's posts you focus on.........

She expresses herself in very stark terms-no wonder considering her experiences. But you only have to spend time in the company of women, in real life or on Mumsnet, to know that for many (not all- but many) relationships are a trade off. Mumsnet is full of women having sex when they would rather read a book or go to sleep because it smooths the wheels of the relationship. Of women suddenly realizing that what has been happening to them for years is marital rape. Of women doing all the childcare, housework, family administration because the man goes out to work. Of women having to justify going out to to play badminton one night a week,, or buy a new dress...........The list goes on.

So yes, mermaid's is an extreme position. But I suspect that the visceral need people have to reject it unconditionally says something about the kernel of truth there is in it...........

Bertrand I agree, and would like to know how men perceive the 'trade offs'. What are they compromising on? What does the same adjustment to keeping a relationship look like, from their perspective?

If we all, men included, strengthened our boundaries, and did not give in to expectation, would there be far fewer marriages or would we have stronger, happier marriages with better communication and more overt negotiation?

*but you are talking about all of those things OP, like linking article about female suicide in China

I am curious to find out what have you done to help that cause if you care about it so much?* Thanks to the op, I have actually learnt something because of that link. It added to a my thinking about what happens to women who are forced to have abortions. Women who are being affected by the one child policy. It is important to share such information. Am glad I have come across it. It helps build a bigger picture of what women are going through.

Well done op and ignore the person who posted that comment.

If we all, men included, strengthened our boundaries, and did not give in to expectation, would there be far fewer marriages or would we have stronger, happier marriages with better communication and more overt negotiation?

Both - fewer marriages, but those there were would be better than many today. But we're a long way off many people recognising they need different boundaries, let alone putting them in place.

But it's okay. There isn't any sexism. My white male manager told me so.

I hate women being portrayed as victims and I despise the whole industry which has built up around feminism, women's rights and victimhood.
A man gets overlooked for promotion, tough luck. A woman gets overlooked, it's sexism.
A man gets a lenient court sentence, it's outrageous. A woman gets a lenient sentence, she has special reasons because she is a mother.
A man runs off with his children - red alert. A woman does the same and it's not given the same prominence because she's the mother.
A man is portrayed in advertising as useless around the house - that's amusing. A woman is portrayed as being competent - that's outrageous sexism.
Women comment on a man's body - it's a bit of fun. Men do the same and it's objectifing women.
I could go on and on about the double standards, but in a nutshell, it seems that every time something happens to a women we don't like, it's sexism, while if the same thing happened to a man, they just have to suck it up because they are not 'oppressed'.

Which one of those would you like to talk about cathf?

I'll talk about any you want Bert, although I won't be around all day.
I know there is always a convoluted justification to all of the examples above, but I might as well hear them again.
They all seem to boil down to women being regarded as having some kind of special status, not equality.

Fair enough. No point discussing with someone who has all the answers, have a good day.

Nah im with lass on that one

I am happy to agree regarding different relationships

Also happy to agree that when i was younger that i MIGHT have sex when i wasnt fussed (not when i didnt want to) because i loved him and wanted to make him happy

That seems to have stopped now...im obviously not as invested in his happiness

Its the blanket marriage = prostitution bit i object to

Not all the answers Bert, but I do have my opinions, which of course are as valid as anyone else's. Enjoy the sunshine!

So yes, mermaid's is an extreme position. But I suspect that the visceral need people have to reject it unconditionally says something about the kernel of truth there is in it......

No Bertrand. I rejected it unconditionally because everyone else apart from STFU was giving it a free pass. The visceral need to reject it was because it is such an outrageously untrue statement- not that it contains a kernel of truth. If you recognise a kernel of truth in it as regards your marriage that is your problem to deal with- you don't however get to deal with it by pretending it's universal or almost universal.

A man gets overlooked for promotion, tough luck. A woman gets overlooked, it's sexism.
Only when the woman is more competent that the men who were promoted ahead of her.

A man gets a lenient court sentence, it's outrageous. A woman gets a lenient sentence, she has special reasons because she is a mother.
Usually women get lenient sentences for having been victims of domestic abuse previous to attacking their abuser. Men get lenient court sentences because the woman was drugged or too drunk to offer a reliable testimony.

A man runs off with his children - red alert. A woman does the same and it's not given the same prominence because she's the mother
It depends on the reasons for running off with the children.

A man is portrayed in advertising as useless around the house - that's amusing. A woman is portrayed as being competent - that's outrageous sexism.
How are the two comparable? Or victimising women? A man portrayed as useless is sexism.

Women comment on a man's body - it's a bit of fun. Men do the same and it's objectifying women.
Only when men don't see more than the body. And women don't usually cat call men on the street. Or put down males for their looks while ignoring their views.

Think about it.

As I said, there are always convoluted justifications why women are victims.
Do you like men or are you constantly on the lookout for some percieved wrongdoing? It must be exhausting.

I do have my opinions, which of course are as valid as anyone else's

I don't agree at all.
For one person's opinions to be valid they have to be based on facts.
And experience counts too.