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'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

458 replies

TinyRick · 07/04/2017 11:52

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

OP posts:
Mermaidinthesea123 · 08/04/2017 11:34

And.......even NOW in my late fifties I'm being asked at interviews if I have young children at home! Ridiculous, I look like I'm in my late 50's as well.
I went to an interview just a few weeks ago and was asked this question. When I said it was unlikely due to my age I was offered the job on the spot.
I was taken round the premises and all of the staff consisted of young men and women my age. I was told by the manager who had absolutely no shame that they don't hire young women as they are "unreliable".
This has been happeneing since I started work aged 18 and is still going on.
It's great for my personal job prospects as I was offered a lot of money to work there which I declined.
Feminism hasn't even scratched the surface.

NotCarylChurchill · 08/04/2017 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 08/04/2017 11:47

"Don't believe for a second that STFU is not a male troll."

I don't think it matters. I think that people who believe this stuff should be robustly challenged, whoever they are. I do hope the thread is not deleted.

STFU · 08/04/2017 11:53

@jellyfrizz

Do you mean trans-girls? A trans-boy is a female who identifies as a male.

I did. Thanks

@Lweji - if that works for a couple then good for them. Breast is best (I was very upset when I couldn't feed DS1 properly) and it takes time to get past the stitches but there is nothing stopping this happening in any situation.

@Willyoujustbequiet

Thank you for proving my point that someone's sex will always be questioned if they are not 'in the sisterhood'.

After I posted from a second account, I immediately pointed out my mistake.

Perhaps there is a White Lives matter campaign you may want to join while you're at it.

I'm almost tempted to post a picture of my non-white self to illustrate the irony here.

@Mermaidinthesea123

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences and they're why I wouldn't comment on a thread with specific details.

No one (and certainly not my husband) has ever demanded sex from me.

I did deny my husband (well, he didn't try it on so technically not denying, I guess) sex for about a year and a half (biological reasons). He was worried about me. He never resented me and we are together over a decade later. Near the beginning I noticed he was a little distant in bed (no kissing and hugging). We chatted and it was because he didn't want me to think he was trying it on.

My marriage is equal although we do both play to our strengths so have slightly different roles. DH has been a SAHP for about 18 months purely to help me in my career. We have different chores eg he doesn't know how to use the washing machine but does the majority of cooking and we spend roughly equal amounts of time doing them.

I do think you're being crazy to say that every woman in a relationship is oppressed, not to say it doesn't happen but generalising like that does feminism no favours.

PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 11:59

For those of you that think that feminism is not needed, can I just say - and there is no nice way to put this - you're wrong. You're just wrong.

I just read this article about the way that algorithms that are used in your everyday online life, and how they disadvantage women. So as the world moves on, the boundaries of what feminism needs to address move too.

The article references an app that was proposed where you upload a picture of a woman that you like the look of, and it matches you to porn that features women that look like that woman for you. Does that sound ethical? What if you'd done some amateur porn and someone uses the facial recognition software to track you down and then blackmails you with it? Causes you to lose your job? What if the data that is tracked about you online causes the violent ex that you're trying to escape from to be able to find you? What about the fact that the algorithms that are being stored about you skew the result when you're looking for a job that means you don't even get to see the higher paid jobs in the first place? (this actually happens - see the refs in the article).

All of these are feminist concerns that didn't even exist when the second wave was happening. They all need addressed from a feminist, woman centred perspective. This technology will shape our lives and right now, women's voices aren't in it. That's terrifying.

So do we still need feminism? Shit, yes.

Mermaidinthesea123 · 08/04/2017 12:01

Well I think then that you are exceptionally lucky STFU.
Many women do not have your experiences. It's easy to be critical others if you yourself are happy and have a partner who is a great guy but when you are abused or someone you know is then you find out how unequal life can be.
I don't hate men by the way, I have several fantastic male friends I've know for 30 years and we are always having a laugh together but I sure as hell wouldn't marry any of them.

BertrandRussell · 08/04/2017 12:10

"Perhaps there is a White Lives matter campaign you may want to join while you're at it.

I'm almost tempted to post a picture of my non-white self to illustrate the irony here."

There is no more irony in a non-white person joining a White Lives matter campaign than there is in a woman being a MRA.
In fact your post is a sort of meta-irony!

STFU · 08/04/2017 12:10

Well I think then that you are exceptionally lucky STFU.

I guess that's the basis of our disagreement. I don't think it's exceptional. I think many many more marriages are like mine than yours.

I'm critical of your statement that all women in relationships are oppressed because you're wrong. Even if I'm the only one who isn't, you're wrong.

I didn't say you hate men, nor that all feminists do, but it's a theme of modern feminism that equality isn't enough, we must look for blame.

@Bertrand

Are you going to respond to my answer for your question or are they acceptable?

I do hope the thread is not deleted.

Why would it be. I've no doubt some people have reported me for being 'a bit like a man' but my posts have not been deleted although others have.

The NC was unintentional and immediately (before any other poster had time to reply) apologised for.

@carylChurchill

"Women" and "feminists" are not discrete groups.

Yes they are. being told you are a woman and therefore you are a feminist whether you want to be or not is not the best way to reverse this trend of dissociation. Your attitude (and others like it) may well be one of the reasons for it though.

PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 12:14

we must look for blame

No, I think you've misunderstood. Critically analysing the dynamics of power structures isn't blaming. You can't set about creating equality unless you analyse what you think is causing the current inequality!

But I don't know why I'm bothering. You've made up your mind. FWIW, I believe you're a woman. I don't think sneering at feminists is a boys only game by any means.

BertrandRussell · 08/04/2017 12:29

"Are you going to respond to my answer for your question or are they acceptable?"

Did you miss my post of 11.06?

STFU · 08/04/2017 12:30

There's been no sneering. I just disagree. I have made up my mind but so have you.

I even deleted my response to your 'aircon is sexist' article because it sounded sneering when I re-read it.

@Bertrand - If men can be feminists, why can't a woman be an MRA and why is this term offensive.

As quoted earlier, 19% of people thought 'feminist' was an insult. Does that not have parallels with MRA being used as an insult?

jellyfrizz · 08/04/2017 12:35

Well I think then that you are exceptionally lucky STFU.
Many women do not have your experiences. It's easy to be critical others if you yourself are happy and have a partner who is a great guy but when you are abused or someone you know is then you find out how unequal life can be.

I agree. Any stats you care to look at show that women do most of the housework when both work full time and men taking responsibility for childcare is still very unusual. Great that you, personally don't need feminism but it's very 'I'm alright Jack' of you to claim that everyone else doesn't.

BertrandRussell · 08/04/2017 12:39

STFU- covered in my post of 11.06.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 08/04/2017 12:40

The government giving £250,000 from the tax on tampons to an anti abortion group makes me Angry

Agerbilatemycardigan · 08/04/2017 12:43

So yes - we still need feminism as we seem to be going backwards with regards to women's rights over their own bodies.

VestalVirgin · 08/04/2017 12:43

It is kinda funny how STFU proves the need for feminism theirself, in arguing against it?

We still need feminism, because people like STFU still exist.

Willyoujustbequiet · 08/04/2017 13:20

Oh the irony! Grin

There are none so blind.....

Lweji · 08/04/2017 13:24

Breast is best (I was very upset when I couldn't feed DS1 properly) and it takes time to get past the stitches

I took four months off and still breastfed apart from one feed, and that's because expressing didn't work well. A partner could easily be off work for another 4 months, for example, to care for the child.
If every father took the same time as the mother, then women would be less disadvantaged.

In your case, one of your careers took a secondary role. But it doesn't have to be like that.
And if you look at most couples, it's women's careers that tend to be dismissed or compromised.

Lweji · 08/04/2017 13:24

And it's not because of stitches or breastfeeding.

PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 13:26

Just to refresh you, STFU, here's a selection of your sneers. Randomly culled. Took me about three minutes. You. Are. Sneering.

batshit crazy
full on crazies
She headed into crazy-land for a while
If feminism were a company, you'd have consultants in recommending a rebranding and dissociation from its current form.
Look it up.
Luckily, the ones that were out in January tended to be the ones who would protest the opening of a Starbucks if told to by SJWs
Anyway, the adults are trying to talk
you and your boring, fucking one-sided, unintellectual and vacuous attempts putting down anyone who isn't on your highly-debatable 'side'
I didn't post as I don't like to argue with someone who has such a personal response but, in theory, they were all complete shit.
Feminism is dying out (thank god) and those clinging on, as is always the case, are fanatics.

PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 13:27

So yeah, if that's you holding back from sneering...I think you might need to keep working on your poker face.

Lweji · 08/04/2017 13:30

I can't think of many women I know that hold similar views. But it's possible, I suppose.

STFU · 08/04/2017 13:32

@bertrand

Yes. I missed it. I'm trying to reply to very dull emails whilst being on this thread too.

Guides / scouts. Yes, I understand the reasons scouts became unisex but think that many of the benefits of a female only space are applicable to boys too, but the boy spaces are pretty much non-existent. The sports teams thread was very much in favour of girls only to get girls into football in a female space and then mixed so they weren't held back while they progressed with a real 'who cares about the boys, they can suck it up' tone.

Some MRA's may be abusive but that doesn't mean they all are and nor does it mean that it should be used so easily and freely (in the same way my being called a man on this thread has) simply because someone disagrees with you. There are some pretty around too.

Yes, men's mental health is an issue. How is this the responsibility of feminism?

I didn't say it was. You asked me what mens' rights or issues I advocated for. The fact that supporting any form of male right means you're called an MRA is fairly frustrating but at no point have I suggested it's the responsibility of feminists to sort out.

Pay gap myth

Debated. Again, mainstream economists disagree with the myth.

that kiwi article

"The men who make these comments defend them as harmless but unwanted harassment can trigger harmful flashbacks to previous similar instances "

They are harmless. Yes, I think if the asker has a pleasant, non-threatening demeanour, does so in an appropriate place (not 1-on-1 in a dark alley) and are equally pleasant if they're told yes or no, I think it's absolutely fine to ask for a number.

In that quote, they said "previous similar instances". To me, they are saying that this asking for contact details is a similar instance of sexual assault.

longer prison terms for the same crime

Ah, so mothers committing crimes can get reduced sentences to look after the children. Why doesn't this work for fathers? It was talking about sentences for the same crime remember. It seems like the burden of children when holding back a mother's career should be addressed but when there is a benefit such as letting you out of jail sooner than a man, it is 'in the child's best interests.' Seems a little like picking and choosing to me. Besides which, children from single parent families are much more likely to have issues than those with two parents so any argument for a woman having a reduced sentence is equally applicable for the man.

The fact that modern feminism is a horrible, misandrist movement although I think it is destroying itself so less of an issue.

mansplaining, manspreading, any fault of men is a sweeping generalisation and objecting to this is to be seen as an MRA or man.

This, from the Washington Post, says a lot of what I think

"This tendency has reached a troubling new peak, as radical feminist theories that view modern Western civilization as a patriarchy have migrated from academic and activist fringes into mainstream conversation. One reason for this trend is social media, with its instant amplification of personal narratives and its addiction to outrage. We live in a time when jerky male attempts at cyber-flirting can be collected on a blog called Straight White Boys Texting (which carries a disclaimer that prejudice against white males is not racist or sexist, since it is not directed at the oppressed) and then deplored in an article titled “Dear Men: This Is Why Women Have Every Right To Be Disgusted With Us.”

or the fact that casual low-level male-bashing is like white noise in certain media

dismissing any concerns with sarcastically toned "what about the menz" or 'MRA'.

telling men that as they aren't women, they can't understand what it is like to be a feminist yet at the same time telling them that they should be feminists, but silent, nodding, agreeing ones who need to shut up and listen.

Suggesting that it makes no difference if women hate men or if men suffer injustice and unfairness as they are in a position of power. here

Ironic misandry.

The fact that what was once something in extreme feminism, the 'patriarchy' is wending its way into many feminists' vocabulary.

@jellyfrizz

Great that you, personally don't need feminism but it's very 'I'm alright Jack' of you to claim that everyone else doesn't.

I'm in the minority on this thread but not in real life. The majority of women and men agree with me. Remember, you're part of the 9%. It doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong but it does mean you're wrong that there's a 'we're alright Jack' attitude.

DeleteOrDecay · 08/04/2017 13:33

I can't believe anyone genuinely thinks we no longer need feminism in a world where at least 2 women are killed every week at the hands of their male partners. The mind bogglesConfused

PoochSmooch · 08/04/2017 13:38

Who is that woman in your clip, STFU?

It's posted by an MRA group and has a Donald Trump T-shirt advertisement at the end of it Confused I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that just maybe that isn't a credible feminist source. Perhaps if you could explain who she is as I don't recognise her?

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