'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

She headed into crazy-land for a while "Women know that, if you step out of line, there's a whole arsenal of techniques to shut you up" (do we? I don't)

PMSL at this. You really really can't think of any techniques? Such as, for example, categorising a woman as hysterical or irrational?

Also seen on this thread: criticising a woman for being 'vulgar' for openly discussing sexual issues (presumably using terminology of which you disapprove); outright insults (calling vestal's input 'boring, fucking one-sided, unintellectual and vacuous'), infantilising other posters ('anyway, the adults are trying to talk'), and dismissing women's concerns about safety as paranoia or silliness (they're worried 'for no good reason' - you never answered my question about why you think women fear violence from men: misunderstanding, spite, hysteria?).

I know you say you're not a man, and probably you're not (although it's strange to hear someone who's had two children talk with derision about others 'popping out' babies). But your writing style, and specifically the way you disagree with feminist posters (I would say 'debate', but it's not really a debate when you just claim they're crazy), are very much recognisable as classic shut-up-you-stupid-woman techniques.

Also, you're r0tringLover as well as STFU on this thread, aren't you? Why do you keep flipping names?

When in a recent meeting at my workplace it was suggested that the governing body should be more gender equal, the response was that if so, we should also do the same for "other" - and I quote- "minority groups".

In a culture that regards women as a minority group, you really don't need a baby to be disadvantaged.

"Many of those not wanting to identify as a feminist any more don't believe that we live in a patriarchal, misogynist society and many think that there are still issues but that feminism is toxic.

So, my question as to the abandonment has not been answered."

Might it be a better idea to ask people who think like that? I dont, so how can I possible speak for people who do?

Incidentally, when you say "She headed into crazy-land for a while "Women know that, if you step out of line, there's a whole arsenal of techniques to shut you up" (do we? I don't)" - talking about "stepping into crazy-land" is not a million miles from telling her to shut up. Your earlier "something just doesn't add up" about Emily Houser is another. And have you heard, for example, of Mary Beard and Caroline Criardo Perez and the shitstorms they stirred up on Twitter for a)being an old woman and b)suggesting it would be OK to have a woman on the a £10 note?

Yes! Women are the majority!

Enough answers for you?

Can we talk about the men's rights now?

When in a recent meeting at my workplace it was suggested that the governing body should be more gender equal, the response was that if so, we should also do the same for "other" - and I quote- "minority groups".

Recently, where I live, a left wing party decided that for a party leadership contest only women would be eligible, as the previous leadership was male. They considered it as fair.
And they did very well at the following elections.
Sometimes it pays to create rules to enforce equality.

@Lweji

"or a backlash against feminism"

see, we agree

Are you going to blame internalised misogyny? These techniques society has to bring us in line or something else? Will you never consider that feminist has become a toxic force, not doing anyone any good because it's been taken over by extremists?

Interesting that you think limiting fathers hours is punishing them. But mothers's having to limit them, effectively, is not?

Because one is a decision based on circumstances of your own making and the other is a legally enforced maximum hours. No woman is told she can work a maximum number of hours. I don't think any workers should be limited. I think the EU working hours directive was a pain in the arse.

@jellyfrizz

If it were normal for men to take on the responsibility why wouldn't women's overall pay match men's regardless of children?

I suspect it would. Earlier, I mentioned biology and medicine and these are a large part of the reason that women usually take time off. I had bleeding nipples, 36,000 (at least) C-section stitches and various other things which meant I was in no fit state to work. By the time was able to work, DH and I were very equal parents in most regards. He slept through the night as he couldn't feed the baby. That meant it was easier to keep his job. I would have been fired had I tried to do my job with multiple nighttime feeds.

If you take a few years off work, stepping back in your career (2 children in 5 years seems like a fair guesstimate to me) then by the time you are looking at household income and management and the way you'll run your family, it would be a big financial hit for the husband to become the SAHP, do the school run etc while the mother tries to pick her career back up. With two children, most of us need all the income we can get.

I think that there's nothing we can do to change nature and expecting SAHP vs breadwinner to be a 50/50 split when only half the population can give birth and then need time to recover from it is not realistic.

@ARumWithAView

I don't know it was a woman being vulgar, but it was. Not so much the word but the phrasing and context. Would you speak that way to someone?

Vestal said I was a man because no woman could have my views (I assume) and said:

"The right to continue oppressing women as much as he needs to do in order to get his needs met."

The 'he' was me. It was her I "infantilised" in the same post. She was behaving like one.

'Popping out babies' isn't derisive. It's a phrase I'd use in real life although the tone in written communication is hard to see so sorry if that sounded rude.

you never answered my question about why you think women fear violence from men: misunderstanding, spite, hysteria?

I think a part of it is women are told they should be afraid by feminists. For example, there was a thread about a poster not calling a taxi for a man who asked for help on a petrol forecourt. The tone of the thread was one of "you did the right thing, never trust a man". I find that saddening and based on my experience (and those I know) unwarranted.

@Cory - but they were a minority group: that's why you were having the discussion, so that they could become an equal group.

@BertrandRussell - I asked you why you think it is, not to speak for the 93% of British women who do not identify as feminists.

You're very keen to talk about mens rights. Which one(s)?

Also, you're r0tringLover as well as STFU on this thread, aren't you? Why do you keep flipping names?

Yes I am. Sorry. It was accidental and I apologised before anyone was confused or thought I was pretending to be someone else.

"You're very keen to talk about mens rights. Which one(s)?"

I don't know. You said you advocated for men's rights. I am interested in which ones.

I think that there's nothing we can do to change nature and expecting SAHP vs breadwinner to be a 50/50 split when only half the population can give birth and then need time to recover from it is not realistic.

So purely because of their biology women will always face a pay gap? Yep, that seems fair?!

I said

"Just before the accusations come, I'm not a troll. I'm a woman. I'm an MRA (advocate, not activist - I'm too lazy to be an activist) when necessary because society is not fair but it is not tilted in favour of men a lot of the time."

Education is one area I'm particularly interested in. I'd say issues as opposed to rights though. I think you were reading too much in to my comment. As I said, it was just to get ahead of being called a man (as Vestal did) simply because I didn't agree with some posters.

I do think there are certain areas where boys (more than men) need some thought and given to how to best help them and it would be nice if it could be done without people on an internet forum saying that you must be a man.

The things that have struck me recently either reading or hearing:

• outrage at trans-boys being allowed in Guides but no reason for thinking it was sexist to suggest Scouts should have remained boys only.

• schools should have a mixed ability and female sports team. No boy team. This was despite the poster saying that fixtures and coaching time were identical for both teams.

• the fact that MRA is an insult.

• shocking MH (and suicide) figures for men.

• the pay gap myth

• being told that there is a rape culture. I read on a Kiwi website this week an article where someone said "there is no escape from rape culture. On any given day ... you might be given a 'compliment' such as being asked for your number by a stranger. The men who make these comments defend them as harmless but unwanted harassment can trigger harmful flashbacks to previous similar instances and experiences of sexual assault".

for the life of me, I can't think how asking someone for their number (presumably in a nice way as you want them to give it to you and then go on a date) can ever be construed as sexual assault. A world where it is is a scary one for boys or men.

• longer prison terms for the same crime

• and (something I've said already) the fact that modern feminism is a horrible, misandrist movement although I think it is destroying itself so less of an issue.

@Jellyfrizz - NO. Because of the choice they make about what to do with their biology. It is a choice. The choose to have a baby. They want one. It is what they want to do. They are free to make a choice and they do so. They choose.

Every single woman I know with the exception of my toxic ex mil identifies as a feminist.

And why wouldn't they really. No one in their right mind clamours to be viewed or treated as inferior.

@Jellyfrizz - NO. Because of the choice they make about what to do with their biology. It is a choice. The choose to have a baby. They want one. It is what they want to do. They are free to make a choice and they do so. They choose.

No. It's not a choice as men cannot have babies. A couple want a baby; the woman has it. No choice there.

A woman's reproductive biology is the very reason they are treated differently to men.

"I said

"Just before the accusations come, I'm not a troll. I'm a woman. I'm an MRA (advocate, not activist - I'm too lazy to be an activist) when necessary because society is not fair but it is not tilted in favour of men a lot of the time."

Education is one area I'm particularly interested in. I'd say issues as opposed to rights though. I think you were reading too much in to my comment. As I said, it was just to get ahead of being called a man (as Vestal did) simply because I didn't agree with some posters.It wasn't because you disagreed. It's because you used language and discussion tactics that ar characteristic of men who post on the feminist boards on here

I do think there are certain areas where boys (more than men) need some thought and given to how to best help them and it would be nice if it could be done without people on an internet forum saying that you must be a man.

The things that have struck me recently either reading or hearing:

• outrage at trans-boys being allowed in Guides but no reason for thinking it was sexist to suggest Scouts should have remained boys only.

Both Scouts and Guides were in fact give the option to become mixed or stay single sex. Scouts chose to become mixed for purely pragmatic reasons- their numbers were plummeting. Guides chose to remain single sex because there are many girls worldwide who, for cultural or religious reasons would not be allowed to join a mixed group. The trans thing is an ongoing and vexed debate- but if you are of the opinion that a boy remains a boy even if he identifies as a girl I can see why there could be an issue

• schools should have a mixed ability and female sports team. No boy team. This was despite the poster saying that fixtures and coaching time were identical for both teams.

i wasn't involved in this discussion-on the face of it it sounds unreasonable. Was it a general view or did a couple of people say it and you are using them as if they represented the majority?

• the fact that MRA is an insult.

Frankly, so very many MRA are so abusive and say such awful things to and about women it is hardly surprising, is it?

• shocking MH (and suicide) figures for men.

Yes, men's mental health is an issue. How is this the responsibility of feminism? What are men doing about it? Suicide has already been discussed by previous posters- the sex differentiation is not as clear cut as it is sometimes reor sensed. Shocking, but how is it the fault of feminism?

• the pay gap myth.

Your opinion- once again, already addressed.

• being told that there is a rape culture. I read on a Kiwi website this week an article where someone said "there is no escape from rape culture. On any given day ... you might be given a 'compliment' such as being asked for your number by a stranger. The men who make these comments defend them as harmless but unwanted harassment can trigger harmful flashbacks to previous similar instances and experiences of sexual assault".

for the life of me, I can't think how asking someone for their number (presumably in a nice way as you want them to give it to you and then go on a date) can ever be construed as sexual assault. A world where it is is a scary one for boys or men.
It isn't being construed as sexual assault, even in your quotation. It says that some women may find it threatening because of their past experiences. Do you really think it's OK to ask a total stranger for their phone number??

• longer prison terms for the same crime

Your article was very vague. But I do know that the impact on families is sometimes taken into consideration when sentencing is decided, and women are far more likely to have caring responsibilities. If there are children to be cared for, then surely their well being should be paramount?

• and (something I've said already) the fact that modern feminism is a horrible, misandrist movement although I think it is destroying itself so less of an issue.

Yes, I know you've said this before- but I'm not sure what you mean. If you give some examples, I would be happy to give you my thoughts

@Willyoujustbequiet

You live in a very unusual circle then. The Fawcett Society found 9% of women identify as a feminist.

YouGov found 19% of people see 'feminist' as an insult but nearly 1 in 3 women would describe themselves as feminists.

These go against the vast, vast majority believing in equality of the sexes.

@jellyfrizz

A couple want a baby; the woman has it. No choice there.

Yes there is, assuming you're talking about a normal, consensual relationship.

M. I want a baby.

W. So do I but I would like to focus on my career and because of our biological differences, it would have a larger impact on me than on you.

M. We could think about adoption.

W. I have already thought about this and carefully considered opposing ideas but on balance I don't think it is for me.

M. Okay then. What would you like for dinner, my love?

See, her choice.

STFU

Bit of a disinformation campaign there.
Feminists believe in equality. But people like you spread lies that its a supremacist campaign.

Your second comment makes sense to someone that does not want children. Many normal healthy men and women do, and they want to have them with their partners.
The man cannot opt to gestate. While they (hopefully) choose to have a child, biol;ogy is not a choice.

Thats before we get to the thorny topic of abortion rights, contraception failure and rape,.

- shocking MH (and suicide) figures for men.

Much to do with the fact that men do not access mental health services due to a feeling of being seen as 'weak'. Gender stereotypes are damaging for both men and women.

I think that there's nothing we can do to change nature and expecting SAHP vs breadwinner to be a 50/50 split when only half the population can give birth and then need time to recover from it is not realistic.

Many women manage work and small babies (they certainly manage to combine looking after babies and other children). Most women in the UK don't breastfeed anyway, so I don't think breastfeeding has had a particular impact one way or the other on work patterns. On the other hand, until recently only women could take maternity leave. Before that it was possible to sack a woman when she got married and before the 1960's women couldn't control their fertility.

Society changes, but it takes a while for attitudes to catch up.

The world of work is also changing. Many physical jobs that could only be done by men no longer exist. I think in quite a few places men are more likely to be unemployed than women.

Many people are likely to work into their seventies, so unless you have many children the fraction of your working life that you spend being pregnant/caring for babies is likely to be comparatively small.

I think equal rights to parental leave will make a big difference, but over the next 30-40 years as people who have taken advantage of it move into senior positions.

Also, there will be increasing acceptance of the idea that families can have two mothers or two fathers, which makes the whole concept of mummy at home and daddy at work irrelevant.

outrage at trans-boys being allowed in Guides but no reason for thinking it was sexist to suggest Scouts should have remained boys only

Do you mean trans-girls? A trans-boy is a female who identifies as a male.

A lot of change happens organically, but if people don't step forward to point out how they are being disadvantaged (e.g. there are legal and practical advantages if you can marry your partner, disabled people need dedicated toilets, people discriminate unfairly if allowed), nothing changes.

And how about:
W. So do I but I would like to focus on my career and because of our biological differences, it would have a larger impact on me than on you.

M - you don't need to breastfeed and I'll take off work half the time we want to have the baby at home. I'll support you if you need to work longer hours and we'll find child care if necessary. And we'll split all work at home equally or find help.

Couple has babies and both careers are encouraged.

Stfu

Please dont bother. I have no respect for a woman(?) Posting under different accounts calling herself (?) a MRA when the entire world discriminates so blatantly against women in every arena.

I have no wish to engage with you. Perhaps there is a White Lives matter campaign you may want to join while you're at it.

I'm not crazy STFU, this is my experience.
My first husband battered me for 8 years and my 2nd husband demanded sex almost constantly in return for him doing the smallest of things, putting a shelf up, fixing a door....commodities.
I'm a pretty strong woman and I've got sick of being abused this way in relationships, not just my husbands but expectations that this will happen in other relationships too. This is why I choose to remain single now.
Try denying your husband sex for months becasue you have a chronic illness which I do and just see what the reaction is. It is mostly resentment, pestering and eventually being dumped.
I don't know of any really equal relationships, I work in the NHS and hear my own experiences being repeated by other people every single day.

That really is the most bizarrely unrealistic 'should we procreate?' conversation I've ever heard, even if it's tongue-in-cheek.

Conclusions:

• women who want to focus on their careers should simply decide not to have children. That's (what passes for) their choice.
• men who want to focus on their careers may or may not have kids, according to preference, because it doesn't impact their work much. Nobody ever refers to their 'choice', because it's a genuine choice and not two limited options.
• women's careers are adversely affected by parenthood because the responsibilities are a matter of biology; there's the obvious stuff, like birth and breastfeeding, but you also need breasts and ovaries to do the school run, stay home for 7 days with a chickenpoxy child, and do all post-weaning night wakings.
• men are sufficiently uninterested in children that they'll go from 'I want a baby' to 'okay then, no kids, what would you like for dinner' within one conversation, because their partner saying 'not for me, thanks' will absolutely reconcile a man to being childless. Men just aren't that bothered about becoming parents.
• adoption is the low-key alternative. Holy shit.