to make a polite request about infertility threads

[lavenderandrose]

I know, it's naughty, it's sort of a TAAT but it's really AT about a lot of Ts. MNHQ, if I really am out of line I apologise unreservedly and will accept the thread being taken down, but it really is intended in a very genuine spirit.

I am not asking anybody to change their mind about their stance or belief on IVF funding, abortion, adoption or ethics of donor conception. Please continue to discuss as passionately as before.

But, please, please, can I explain a little bit about the 'childless people should foster / they should adopt because there are so many children needing homes' and why they are irrelevant and also potentially distressing to read.

Firstly, foster carers are marvellous. Without them, children would not be living in family homes at all but in children's homes. In a children's home, privacy can be difficult, children can feel unsettled and anxious at being in close proximity to many others especially those significantly older/with very challenging behaviour and also can become institutionalised which can make their lives as adults very difficult. To grow up with foster parents in a family home, with 'ordinary" rules and, in the best cases, having a stable childhood, is the best and these people who offer that are, put simply, amazing.

But it isn't enough to be amazing. You need to have one adult who does not work outside of the home. This is because you will be required to attend meetings and to be available should the child need you. This is not like being a normal mum to an average twelve year old, say. This telegraph article is pessimistic but also more realistic than some of the rosy glasses on here.

The final point with fostering - it isn't your child. No matter how attached you get to him or her, and they to you, you are not their parent. For someone longing for their own child, fostering is not the answer. In some ways, it's like suggesting to a single person they take your husband out for a date. OK, that's a bit of a stupid example but nonetheless fostering is not what most people think of when desperate for their own child.

Adoption is slightly different because legally and in every other sense, the child becomes 'yours.' But it isn't for everyone, and more pertinently, everyone isn't for it.

You may have seen billboard posters in your town inviting you to adopt. They imply that it doesn't take much. You just need to be a loving person - single, gay, old, young, black, white - are all unimportant. I can understand how they make people think it's possibly as easy as attending a few courses, coming home with a cute toddler and that's all great. You get your longed for child, the child gets Mummy and Daddy. What could possibly go wrong?

The problem is, not everyone who applies for adoption is approved. Like being a foster carer, you need at least a spare bedroom. You also need a verifiable support network. That proved impossible for us: so out of the running. If you have a pond, fill it in. If you smoke, this severely impedes your chances even if you have given up. (This is not me!) Things that thousands of birth parents manage to be fine with: dogs, cramped house, full time demanding jobs, high BMIs, vegan, can be enough to lose you a child. (Please note adoptive parents - 'can be' - I know many will have adopted with one or more of these things but I am just trying to illustrate they can go against you.)

But let's say you are approved. Brilliant! You can take your new son or daughter home now. But no - you have to wait to be matched. You may go through the heartbreak of a match falling through. The wait is endless. But then you finally get your son or daughter. It's a deliriously happy time, but it's also for many adoptive parents a sad one. Many will notice how few the congratulations are, how little cards adorn the mantelpiece, than with a new baby.

As the years go on you may find your child is perfect in every way, or you may find that their behaviour is a challenge. Around between 10 and 16% of adoptions break down altogether. many more limp on, adoring their child but with hurt and pain on both sides.

Please, please, don't think I'm saying anything negative about adopted children or parents. I would never do that. But it's not for everyone.

For a baby, I need IVF. It will be self funded. I understand fully why the NHS cannot pay for that. I respect your view whatever it is.

But please do not assume you can cure me and tell me that if I really wanted a child I could find thousands upon thousands of pounds, or foster, or adopt.

I work with children. For years now I have had people earnestly tell me what a wonderful mother I would be and why don't I have one. I don't mind that. Occasionally, I will need to have a difficult conversation with somebody and they will tell me I don't even have children and therefore I know nothing about nothing.

I am accepting that having children may not be possible. I will be very upset. But I can reach acceptance.

But please, don't imply this is my fault.

Again, sorry if the post doesn't come across the way I intended it to. I'm just asking people gently to not put forward fostering or adoption as cure alls.

The adoption and fostering processes are virtually the same. It's not easy and as a previous poster said it can become quite emotional.

its not something to do lightly. I agree with you OP flippant comments are not helpful.

It's a long gruelling process and often the child or baby you care for will be badly traumatised and have really challenging/unusual/unexpected behaviour. It isn't at all like parenting your own birth children.

Thank you for this fantastic post, OP - and very best of luck for your future journey.

I find the 'have you thought about adoption?' question a bit baffling - has anyone really not heard of adoption? Surely all infertile couples have thought about it, and the question-asker is never going to be offering a genuinely helpful alternative?

I have been known to ask gently 'have you considered adoption' where someone is saying 'they will never be a Mum' when it is clear they have finished with IVF etc , because some people think they are too old / not wealthy enough / don't own own home / single or whatever. But always recognise that adoption is not for everyone / not for most people.

I'm sorry but I just can't imagine any couple who are unable to conceive would write off adoption without properly looking at it and then your suggestion would make them think again. I'd seriously consider stopping asking the adoption question.

Lovely post, op, thank you.

We had infertility issues. There is no way we would ever have been accepted for adoption as DP has mental health issues, even though these have been successfully treated with medication. No one would ever consider us for adoption. Much less fostering.

I actually very much like the analogy of "Single? Borrow my husband for a date!" It really sums up how f***g inappropriate the "you can adopt" brigade are.
Just for a slight twist may i present the person who when they heard we were adopting frowned and sternly demanded "Have you tried IVF?"
Also completely inappropriate.

Excellent post, OP.

I cannot add anything meaningful to what has been said about fostering and adoption, but I do want to say something about the often trotted out rubbish that infertility is not an illness and should not be funded by the NHS.

I needed several operations and medical procedures, some self funded and some covered by medical insurance, before we could even proceed with IVF. We had three IVF cycles, largely self funded, although we received a small contribution from the GP for the first cycle. This was all many years ago, and we are lucky to have three children (including twins), so I have no personal interest in whether or not IVF is funded by the NHS at this stage.

My current battle is with breast cancer. I had two primary tumours within one year and I am currently coming to the end of over 8 months of treatment for the second diagnosis. Surgery and chemotherapy is no walk in the park and I am forever grateful for the excellent treatment I have received from the NHS. Obviously, cancer and other serious conditions must be a priority for the NHS.

HOWEVER, believe it or not, I suffered from higher levels of misery and distress during my years of infertility than I have during my cancer treatment. When I thought I would never be a mother, I bawled my eyes out on a regular basis, told my husband he should leave me and find someone who could make him a father, neglected my career, felt set apart from family and friends etc. There were times when my mental health was extremely fragile.

Can the two be compared? Well, in short, whilst dealing with cancer, I very much want to live. When I was dealing with infertility, I simply wanted to die. Those who have never had fertility issues are unlikely to appreciate the utter devastation it causes.

OP, I wish you and anyone else treading this lonely path all the very best.

Great post OP and good luck.

fangbanger66 - agreed. I just wish that everyone on both sides of those horrible IVF threads would do the same and not let it turn into an argument about who is undeserving of medical treatment.

Everyone deserves decent medical treatment and I think it's also horrible to hear 'obese people shouldn't be treated as they could just lose weight' or 'no plastic surgery on the NHS' when that plastic surgery might be a child's hare lip, or recovery from burns injuries or something. The minute we get into a comparison about who 'deserves' help, we are basically telling at least one person reading the thread that they shouldn't be treated for something massively sensitive to them and, frankly, we all lose.

I also totally agree with the original point about adoption. Adoption isn't easy, and isn't for everyone. Many perfectly good parents would not be able to adopt if they had not been able to have their children.

Brilliant post OP!

we were very lucky and conceived our daughter through IVF it's the toughest thing I've ever done, I'm still recovering mentally from the whole process and at the same time trying to accept that I may never have another. I cried for 2 weeks after she was born.

I hate when people think adoption is a magic cure all.

Good luck with your IVF I'll send you lots of positive thoughts

Yanbu at all. I've not had the experience of infertility thankfully but I have been on the receiving end of stupid comments from people who don't have a clue what they are talking about. Good luck with your treatment op.

What a great post OP. Thank you for writing about it so eloquently. I hope there aren't many MNers to be in the "If it was me, I'd just adopt" camp, but if there are, I hope they read this.

And the best of luck with your IVF .

FallenMadonna your post struck a cord with me and gave me a lump in my throat.

At my very lowest points I often think I'd rather have cancer and being told I'm going to die than have infertility. My rational self tries to shrug them off telling myself how insensitive and horrible to think when people are going through cancer treatment in order to save their life. I guess I can't possibly know but your feelings seem to be how I would feel. Being told I have cancer, I'd like to think I would treat as matter of factly, get treatment if it works I live, if it doesn't I die.
Reminders of how infertile you are, are constant and very in your face. 'Dealing with infertility I wanted to die' definitely sums me up at the moment and I can't even have

lavenderandrose Bravo. Well said.

Wishing you the best of luck with your IVF.

I completely agree. I'm infertile and heard the 'just adopt' nonsense too many times.

Even if it's not a stupid blase "If it was me, I'd adopt" comment, I had a couple of gentle "now then...please don't take this the wrong way...but have you thought about adopting?" suggestions. Even from my own sister who I love more than anyone. Of course I've bloody thought about it! And I know full well we couldn't do it!

I just don't think people who easily had their own children get it. They just don't seem capable of that kind of empathy. My sis got pregnant with her 3rd child by accident just after I'd given up all hope - the baby was unplanned, and while they could afford him and had the space, they were thrown completely off kilter. The completely logical thing would have been for him to be given to us to "just adopt". However, obviously this was completely unthinkable. He was their flesh and blood and they loved him completely within a few weeks of finding out - which is why I find "Why don't you adopt?" comments from people who conceive easily so strange. I wanted my own baby.

Good for you OP. Stay strong. I tried for 8 years for my baby, had ivf, amazingly it worked and DS is now a surly teenager.

Wishing you all the luck in the world.

Fang and fallen - I also wanted to die when I was dealing with the prospect of never being a mother.

Sukey can you please re-read the poster above who asked people NOT to refer to adopted children as "not your own"?

I have to say, we had many more "oh did you think of IVF" comments after starting the adoption process than "have you thought of adoption" when we were going through long term failures to have biological children.

I do get that there are people who only want to be biological parents, not adoptive parents. I don't quite understand why, obviously, being an adoptive parent, but each to their own.

However I have to say I am pretty happy to explain the many misconceptions surrounding adoption - some of which I have to say I've seen on this thread.

But I've never asked anyone going through fertility issues if they've considered it. As one PP said, of course they bloody have! They may actually know no real facts about it but they have definitely thought of it. Most of the explanations I've given have come up when we've talked about our own experiences.

Great post. Another reason why it's not the first option: councils won't consider people undergoing fertility treatment. If you stop, then because age is such a big factor, if you get turned down you will have to start again with your chances of success dramatically lowered. If you want a child desperately it makes sense to exhaust that avenue first with the best chance of success rather than leaving it until an unsuccessful adoption attempt which could be some time later. Many councils also insist on a certain period between stopping treatment and being looked at for adoption.

However I have to say I am pretty happy to explain the many misconceptions surrounding adoption - some of which I have to say I've seen on this thread.

See this is another thing, you always get successful adopters lecturing you about how actually it's a complete myth that people get turned down unless they're complete monsters. It doesn't really matter if people who were unsuccessful (who by default would know more about failing) tell them until they're blue in the face that they were turned down for fairly minor reasons it just gets pooh poohed. Just because you were successful doesn't mean other people will have the same experience as you.

Even the head of Barnardos said most people wouldn't be allowed to adopt their own children if they went through the same process.

I'm adopted and I know a bit of what my parents went through. Several assessment meetings at a location four hours away, every question in the world, home assessment, family assessment, even their outdoor working dog was assessed and this was in the eighties. Then I was born early but they weren't allowed to come get me, I was in foster care for two weeks before they were told to come take me home. Then I was nine months old before my birth mother signed the final bit of paperwork so nine months of having a daughter wondering if they were going to have to go to court to keep me. She'd signed everything else but hadn't gone in to sort out the last bit. The adoption agency had to go looking for her.

Dad said that the agency literally asked them everything from when, where and how they were born, their childhood, when they met. Even questions he wasn't prepared for like if he had ever been injured at work - he's a farmer.

And the placement decision is with the birth mother. Or that's how it works with the agency I was adopted through. They showed my birth mother about ten profiles of prospective parents and she chose who I went to.

I have two different from a previous relationship and I'm struggling to conceive with my new partner. Very few people know but the ones that do have suggested that we adopt because I'm adopted and it worked out great for me.

Fantastic post op.

I'm infertile. I'm in the blessed position of being able to afford to pursue donor egg ivf though and I'm hoping it works. I have had so many people comment on even just the ivf never mind me using donor eggs. Some have said I'm selfish for not adopting a child as that's "basically the same thing as ivf except you take an existing child instead of creating yet more for the world to pay for". Wtf?!? No one gets comments like that when they ttc and succeed without needing fertility treatment! Why should we infertile women sacrifice our desire to carry and birth a child of our own just because we need "more help than is natural".
Society needs to revisit its views on the right of women to pursue motherhood however the hell they want to without fear of judgment and criticism.
Best of luck op and all of you who are going on this journey to have a child in your arms, by whatever means you choose.

Excellent post, OP.

We tried for three and a half years, during which time we had endless tests, procedures, and eventually surgery and hormone therapy before conceiving DC1 via IVF. Astonishingly we then went on to conceive DC2 naturally. We had so many people talking about adoption, and about IVF as if it was a guarantee of a living child. Infertility is so utterly miserable, having such glib, thoughtless comments just made it all worse. They minimise and dismiss the pain, and that just adds to the hurt.

I know people (usually) just want to make you feel better, but the long and short of it is they can't. A hug really is the most you can do. And the least you can do is shut the fuck up when you don't know what you're talking about.