Men on gynae ward

[roarityroar]

Yesterday I was taken into hospital after heavy bleeding. I needed a blood transfusion and then went into theatre for surgery. They ask you to keep all sanitary pads to show how much you're bleeding, which is obviously very personal and after the general anaesthetic I felt groggy and vulnerable.

There are 4 beds in this ward with curtains. Two of the other three women have their partners here. I feel pretty vulnerable as it is and given it's the gynaecology ward AIBU to really not want random non-HCP men just a curtain away when I'm bleeding from my sodding vagina?

There is a poster on another thread at the moment whose violent alcoholic husband was at her bedside when she was in hospital recently. I'd argue that she would have been at risk in a single room. And him being able to stay the whole time puts everyone at risk.

Nurse are complacent about safety of patients in open bays. They get checked less frequently so greater risk of falls.

I don't agree with this. I agree that single with en-suite facilities are preferable in nearly every regard from a patient's perspective, but as a nurse (admittedly a long time since I've worked on a ward) I found bays much 'easier' and safer to manage, certainly with inadequate staffing levels. Depending on the layout of the ward you can see what's going on in a bay.

Until wards are purpose built and staffed fully (which of course should be the aim) then I'm not convinced single rooms are the ideal.

Crumbs, When I was on a post gynae surgery ward, with six beds there was a patient with dementia. She was in her late eighties. She shook me awake at 3am, four or five days after major abdominal surgery because her mother would be looking for her and I should get up and help her escape. It was 20 minutes after I pressed the buzzer before anyone was able to come and take her back to bed. They moved her the next day, but the woman who came in to her bed would routinely ask that all male visitors would leave the room so she could go to the toilet. Both during visiting hours and not. It didn't bother me at the beginning but after six or seven times per visiting session it was getting a little irritating. I really felt for the woman beside me who had just had a miscarriage - she was supposed to be on another ward, but bed shortages coupled with no more private rooms available - and couldn't get talk to her husband and father about it because they had to shuffle off to the hall every five minutes. So OP, yanbu to feel vulnerable and want some privacy and dignity but yabu to want others to want this in the same way as you. For some women having their dp there, not only gives support but it allows them to maintain their dignity and feel human while in hospital, not just a patient or a condition.

Things change so in 20 years time it will probably be normal to have family supporting you round the clock in hospital and families that don't do it will be judged

Well wouldn't that be a nightmare!

If you have a partner and young children but no other family able to help (elderly parents or none) then what happens? Does the partner set up camp 24/7 with the young children on the open ward in order to "support" the spouse in hospital?

I have no experience of anything except the NHS (and the associated lack of privacy and poor staffing, albeit with the majority of staff doing their very best in the circumstances). But I was wondering how it works in other similar countries? France, Germany, the Netherlands, Ireland etc? I know they don't have the NHS so the situation isn't strictly the same but how do things work? Can the poor/elderly/vulnerable still access health-care? And what are the hospitals like compared to ours?

'But I was wondering how it works in other similar countries? France, Germany, the Netherlands,'

Private rooms!

treacle In Germany the poor/elderly/vulnerable can and do of course still access health-care, which is free at the point of use. Everyone pays health insurance but there is public insurance which is a percentage of your income (around 14%) and which is paid for by the state for those in receipt of many benefits (not child benefit which is universal). Nobody is without health insurance whatsoever as the state pays it if you are poor, and if you are earning it is deducted from your pay before you even see it. People on higher salaries can opt out of public health insurance as long as they can prove they are paying private insurance but in all honesty that is a double edged sword - cheaper premiums when young and healthy, high premiums later and hard to opt back in to public unless your pay drops below a certain level. My DH earns over the threshold but chooses to stay with public health insurance.

And what are the hospitals like compared to ours?

In my experience better. I've lived here ten years and had two babies here by caesarean section, had an emergency hospital stay for a separate reason, and had a child in hospital here for ten days. My mother in law has been in hospital here for the last three months - home for a few days twice during that time. I've also had a baby in the UK on the NHS, also a caesarean.

The in patient care here is worlds better. The acute medical care seems about the same, but the all 'round treatment of patients, the nursing care, the hospitals themselves, the facilities, the atmosphere, the time available for patients is so much better in Germany than on the NHS its almost impossible to compare.

No visitors stay overnight unless with a child. I stayed in hospital with my daughter when she was ten and had a bed to sleep on provided, in a room designed for that, but overnight guests do not sleep in rooms with adult patients.

There are two bed rooms but at least they are en-suite - that's with bog standard public insurance, the kind that the state pays for if you are unemployed and that costs 14% ish of your income even if you only work part time on a low wage.

5more what, if any, would you say are the drawbacks of the German model? People are understandably very worried about losing the NHS but when I read your post it just makes me think 'why can we not follow that type of system instead?'.

I was brought up believing that other countries were like the USA where lack of access to healthcare is widely reported, yet that doesn't seem to be the case in other developed countries.

I'm sure there are drawbacks Treacle but it does seem to work better than the NHS. My on/gyne was shocked about the lack of third trimester placental ultrasound screening in the UK because placental failure is a major cause of late losses so that third scan is provided as a basic care essential here, for example. Some would say that is also a down side though, because pregnancy care is more medical (obstetrician led care is default, you can have midwife led care but have to actively choose that).

There is possibly more incentive on the patient to seek the right care, as you can go to any GP without registration and can self refer to any specialist - you'd waste time if you self referred to the wrong one... But you can always use the GP as a gateway as the UK, and GP referrals can get you an on the day apt where one isn't available if you self refer.

Health care is less "joined up" or can be unless you do everything via your GP, as medical records don't follow you unless via a referral - that's partly cultural due to privacy concerns I suspect.

The system is under strain due to the aging population, as is the case all over western Europe, but it is further away from breaking than the NHS.

treacle the newer hospitals in Finland have wards with 2 bed rooms along the corridor (usually two parallel corridors to a ward with nurses station and examination rooms in the middle) and a private room at each end, with ensuites shared between neighbouring rooms. The older hospitals have wards split into mainly 3 bed rooms and some 4 bed ones and toilets/showers off the corridor.

Wards are usually mixed sex though, even within the rooms. No overnight visitors except on children's ward, not even on post-natal but there's enough nursing staff, I think it was one nurse to every two rooms. Only problem is there's only one TV to a room so if you don't manage to get hold of the remote you're out of luck

I've spent time in three different hospitals around the country and they were all very good. In one hospital I was taken in at night having a bad anxiety attack and had toddler DD with me. They put us in a private room connecting to the nurses room and a bit later they took DD to the children's ward as I was struggling and told me that I can come again in future if I have similar attack and DD could go to the children's ward again. They were so kind and caring.

You pay a co-pay of around 30 euros per night though for hospital stays.

I work within gynae and am really saddened by some of the stories on here. Our visiting ends at 8 and only in extremely exceptional circumstances is it extended (people waiting for emergency theatre for example). We try and put people actively miscarrying or dying in a side room so partners/children can stay as required but we only have a small amount of side rooms avaliable.
Im sorry but in my and I believe most of my colleagues opinions, partners staying outside visiting and overnight is completely unacceptable and im quite suprised/horrified that it is allowed. Women need peace and privacy in such vulnerable circumstances and we as HCP need to preserve their dignity any way possible. If people want their partners and decide to 'kick off' in any way they are politely and firmly told this is not an option. I empathise with their feelings but our priorities must lie with other patients and trying to protect them from anything which may make their stay any more intolerable.

Not to mention the infection risk. And doubling the occupancy of what the unit was designed for.

Sometimes things sound like that even if its unintended.

My post had fuck all to do with the visitor/privacy issue. My point was that sometimes despite extreme circumstances there just isn't private rooms available.

I'm not slagging the NHS off either I'm a HCP. There isn't an endless supply of side rooms.

All those women saying that they needed their husbands with them because they were going through a terrible time are prioritising their needs over and above the needs of those who requires privacy for whatever reason. In this hierarchy right to privacy trumps individual need.

Please understand that I am not unsympathetic, I say that as someone who has experienced traumatic miscarriage and late loss of a 20 week baby. Of course I wanted my husband with me all night but there were other women in the ward who had the right to privacy when they are ill and trying to sleep. So he went home.

If there were individual rooms of course people should be allowed to stay overnight. But we are not talking about individual rooms.

Brummie That certainly wasn't my experience. I turned up at 5am for my ERPC and I didn't even have to finish my sentence when I asked if my husband could come onto the ward with me. They said "yes of COURSE he can stay with you" and looked horrified that I'd even felt the need to ask. He was with me (apart from when I was in surgery) until I was discharged at 5pm. They even asked if he wanted lunch! (We said no, NHS resources are precious!)

Overnight is a different issue - I didn't stay overnight and wouldn't have asked if my husband could stay if I had - I understand why some people might want that but I do think it needs to be in a private room if it happens at all (other than post-birth). But certainly in my case it didn't seem like it was anything out of the ordinary and two other patients (one of them was certainly in for a medically-managed miscarriage, not sure about the other) had their partners there all day too.

Again, this debate is coming down to people making arbitrary decisions about whose needs trump others. I don't see why a woman's need for support from her partner when they have (both!) lost a much-wanted baby is trumped by another woman's need for - well, I'm not really sure you could call it 'privacy' as a) there are always other patients on the ward and b) there's a curtain in place at all times. But other people clearly do feel that way. That suggests to me that we as patients are not the best people to decide and in fact it should be left to the ward staff on the day. Obviously on your ward it very often wouldn't be allowed. But I suspect there would be some circumstances where you WOULD allow it, which is why a hard and fast rule is no good.

YANBU if these people are there round the clock. Visiting hours are there for a reason. I udnerstand bending them if there is an emergency or something but just so people can stay all the time? No.

It would have been lovely to have DH there after having my babies but he was allowed to stay one hour then sent home and told to come back at 10am the next day for visiting times. He then had to leave at 1 and come back at 3. Yes it was a pain in the arse, yes I wanted him there constantly but I couldn't have that. Sometimes people need rest and privacy. Especially in hospital.

Peach - my post is related to overnight outside of visiting hours - I thought that was quite clear. We have open visiting in the day from 10 until 8 and noone has any issue with partners being present then and nor should they.

Sidge - all the evidence is against you, I'm afraid. Single rooms are safer but most nurses initially object because of perception rather than fact. Most who've moved to single rooms prefer them too. Look at work by Kings fund.
Let's be clear, although I would like single rooms I do not believe our NHS is failing by anyone's standards except Daily Mail and government wanting to undermine it. On 16 out of 20 key performance indicators the NHS tops the world. That is even with a much lower percentage of GDP being spent on it. If we funded it at same level as say, Germany or Finland we would have a service that was well, well ahead and once again the envy of the world.

I had my baby in the Middle East, it's private healthcare. The private hospital on the maternity wing was all single rooms, with husbands been able to stay at all times. My DH only got to leave once to get dinner I had a C section and it was a godend to have DH there, especially during the night to help me lift baby etc instead of calling the nurses every 10 minutes. Yes you pay out of your own pocket for healthcare, think my bill worked out around €4K all included for 3 night stay (but it was covered by health insurance). Pre natal care is far superior to Ireland/UK from what I've found.

YANBU as you want privacy and your dignity intact but I'd ask for a private room if available

Let's be clear, although I would like single rooms I do not believe our NHS is failing by anyone's standards except Daily Mail

I do believe that the NHS has very good outcomes in a lot of ways. But I honestly do feel that sadly it is failing in some others, mostly in matters relating to pain relief and dignity whilst an inpatient. I've suffered in agony, in a pool of my own blood etc because no one is available to help and I know far too many others who have done the same for them all to be unusual occurrences.

I hope you are feeling better

Did you raise it with the ward staff?

Treaclesoda the NHS Friends and Family Test gives national scores around 95% based on privacy and dignity, amongst other things, so your experience certainly isn't the norm.

Crumbs that's very interesting! I stand corrected 😊

I don't imagine my experience is the norm, I certainly hope not. But at the same time, I'd say it's not particularly unusual either, because so many people report similar experiences.