To think Gibraltar should just be repatriated to Spain

[brexitstolemyfuture]

Sorry couldn't find a thread on this, but shouldn't it just be part of Spain? It's a bit ridiculous that it's causing such tension. As someone Spanish said it's like Spain owing Penzance, people would not be happy with that.

"Not to mention Leave voters, when this issue was repeatedly brought up during the Referendum campaign, who are now expressing outrage and surprise that what they were told would happen is, in fact, happening."

Because the unlawful threats of occupation from a bullying neighbour, should sway the UK voter to capitulate? Rubbish. We're expressing outrage, because it is outrageous. It was, before the referendum, and its still outrageous now.

I do however, still find it amusing that this is coming from an esteemed member of the EU. A member who refuses to take in their quota of refugees. Who refuse to pay their share of monetary support for refugees currently supported by other EU states. (I think Polands the only EU state with a worse record on this, they have refused point blank to take ANY refugees, or assist the EU financial regards refugees).

So if the EU council wish to pin their colours to member states who point blank refuse to live by the regulations the EU council 'democratically' demand, so be it. They will retain the states they deserve.

Carolinesbeanies - thank you for patronising me and telling me I am out of step with reality. I did actually once read the section on the Treaty of Utrecht which dealt with Gibraltar. Did you?

Sorry I didn't spell out my post earlier and needed a [sarcasm alert]:
No Gibraltar votes in Westminster for the Tory party, is one reason.
Why not? Because I know damn well that they are not represented there. The Tories only wake up to NI issues when as now, their majority is slender and they need DUP votes.
Comparison made with NI because the Tories don't normally give a stuff about Irish issues, until they are desperate for a few votes. At present there is a crisis in NI, and there is a possibility of direct rule. How much of that is now getting reported? Virtually zilch.

Gibraltar hasn't been flooded with Brits. Native Gibraltar make up the majority of the population and are their own unique blend of Genoese, Andalusian, Maltese, Jewish and English. They are also a self governing British Overseas Territory - essentially independent but have a relationship of mutual support and shared foreign policy with the UK. Spain doesn't get to ride rough shod over their right to self-determination just because they share a land-border.

It is aggressive and extremely concerning that Spain and the EU are banding about threats regarding British and even American sovereignty. The focus should be on getting an arrangement that causes the least amount of upheaval for all current EU citizens (including UK citizens) and businesses.

Supporting the ceding of Gibraltar to Spain is no different from supporting the ceding of Alaska to Canada, Alsace to Germany, Kaliningrad to Poland or the Canary Islands and Cueta to Morocco. There are load of these national sovereignty anomalies that reflect complex human history and which are best not disturbed. Spain's response of trying to stick their oar into the Scottish independence debate is frankly laughable. How far should we take this small minded divisive talk? The next thing we know they will be supporting splitting the UK into Orkney and Shetland, Pictland, Scotland, Northumberland, Gwynedd, Dyfed, Cornwall... Then questions over Andalusia, Alsace, Brittany, Bavaria, Burgundy, Catalonia, Franconia, Lombardy, Sardinia and numerous other former nations having independent sovereignty might raise their heads and before you know it Europe will have thousands of independent movements and no cohesion. Clearly I jest a little, but simply to demonstrate it is completely daft to raise this sovereignty stuff as it opens a can of worms that will do more harm than good.

Do you not know of the movement to become better connected to in particular new Zealand , Australia Canada with us, improving the borders between us, to make movement & trade amongst us all. I actually would prefer to be more connected to all commonwealth countries as we have a connected interest. Why shouldn't we look after each others economic interests, employment levels, this all includes Gibraltar, my husband is ex Royal Navy he and friends of ours who lived there for many years know the history and even though some in the UK have no interest in history and what our ancestors did to protect this terrortry The people who live there want to remain as part of the UK, even Spanish families who have lived there for many years want this. . I am aware many don't have my views and that is there rights but before everyone fights to still be part of the EU.

So, it looks like a WTO Brexit

But:

• No other developed country trades solely under WTO rules - they all have addition multilateral & bilateral deals

• Any WTO country with a grudge, or a demand (e.g. more visas, aid) - Argentina, Kenya ? - can block the UK from having its WTO schedules and quotas agreed.

Also, several countries have joined the WTO during the last 40 years - during which time the UK was the toughest in making demands before letting them enter.

Several reports of WTO countries eagerly planning payback, their once in a lifetime opportunity to put the boot in when the UK is vulnerable, in a desperate hurry for WTO agreement.

Pregrina, why are you hitting posters round the head with the Utrecht Treaty, when clearly Spain wish to rip it up? Thats the point.

As to the rest of your 'Tory' rant, its just that. An utterly unfounded rant. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but your anti-tory bias unfortunately spoils whatever good points you may have to make.

Why am I 'hitting people round the head with the Treaty of Utrect'? Because it's been a running sore with Spain ever since it was drawn up. I will take it that you haven't ever read it. The current hysterical jingoism about Gibraltar is just that. Ditto when the Falkland's crisis arose - most of the flag waving, "It's British" hadn't the foggiest idea about the place.

Anti -Tory rant? The more of the current bigotted right wing Tories I get rattled, the better!

Anti Tory rant???? Well if Tories get rattled then at least they care. Unlike the smug lefties who are well pleased with themse4lves. They have their man Corbyn in charge and loads of members of that Momentum set up. They are very happy. Never mind they will never be in Goverment. What does that matter.

Peregrina Presumably the Spanish signed it?

It isn't 'hysterical jingoism' at all....Gib is a military base, it controls the entrance to the Med, and the Spaniards should really after all this time, have got the message, that Gib does not wish to be Spanish.

if the EU council wish to pin their colours to member states who point blank refuse to live by the regulations the EU council 'democratically' demand, so be it. They will retain the states they deserve

Beautifully put

FWIW I get that some in the EU will try to make things as awkward as possible for the UK, if only to stop anyone else being seized with the desire to leave. But by backing something downright unlawful in order to make a point, they surely show just why, on balance, we're being wise to leave

Maybe the UK should have thought a bit harder about the consequences of Brexit (Gib, NI, etc) before embarking on fucking stupid Brexit.

Isn't this all a bit overblown? Spain is not talking about vetoing any Brexit deal unless Gibraltar is returned. Instead, it is saying that Gibraltar is not part of the general Brexit terms. As Gibraltar already has different terms than the UK in the EU, it is not surprising that it will have different agreements on exit, and probably not much different to how things were before joining the EU.

The hyperbole raised about this makes me very worried for the Brexit negotiations.

Well, perhaps of Spain take over Gibraltar on the basis of history being important, they could go back a little further in history and hand it back to the Moors, who settled it long before Spain had an interest - about the 8th century I believe...

catout I think ISIS thinks along the same lines as you!

Isn't this all a bit overblown? Spain is not talking about vetoing any Brexit deal unless Gibraltar is returned. Instead, it is saying that Gibraltar is not part of the general Brexit terms.
Agreed. I have to wonder if the Tories aren't being deliberately provocative to bring our withdrawal from the EU to a swift conclusion, one that will deflect public anger away from them and onto the EU. It's easy enough to get the jingoism flowing, thanks to Dacre and his ilk. The government knows that negotiations are not going to go our way, and they will have an election to fight a year after 2019.

if the EU council wish to pin their colours to member states who point blank refuse to live by the regulations the EU council 'democratically' demand, so be it. They will retain the states they deserve

Exactly.

It isn't 'hysterical jingoism' at all...

Today's tabloid screaming about Gibraltar and politicians talking about War is absolutely nothing else.

The Spanish royal family are cousins to our Queen Surely they could get this stopped

Sorry, but this is hilarious. Are you still living in the 18th Century?

Just shows the Leave propaganda machine did fuck all to tell the electorate what the implications would be.

And I'm for Gibraltar keeping its status by the way. Having been there and not even living in UK.

Let's repeat this as some posters seem to not be aware of what the problem is here:

Gibraltar has voted to refuse any Spanish rule and remain British
Gibraltar has voted to stay in the EU

The EU referendum ie the will of the majority of British voters has made it impossible for Gibraltar to have what they voted for.

A brand new arrangement is needed. Perhaps a new referendum will happen so people there can choose.

Sovereignty claims are a complication. The UN sees Gibraltar as a colony and the people living there as settlers who displaced the original inhabitants by force. So any self-determination rights would apply to the descendants of the original population.

Spain, the only country to have a border with Gibraltar, have asked to be able to veto any deals.

The original inhabitants were Berber. How do you propose identifying their descendants and demonstrating that they have closer ties to Gibraltar than those whose families have lived there for over 300 years?

The indigenous Gibraltarians, though not aboriginal to the rock, are as close as it comes in that they only exist because of Gibraltar's history.

The UN is not perfect. It has narrow definitions that don't fully acknowledge the diversity of ways in which territory can be organised and sovereignty held. It does, however, recognise the importance of self-determination, which the people of Gibraltar have given a clear opinion on.

Me? Propose? You flatter me Genevieve. I am not the UN I have been trying to present facts in this thread as they seemed in short supply.

I think the Gibraltar issue is too complex for me to form an opinion. And to be honest I don't care about the place that much - I don't mind if the solution goes either way.

The only opinion I have about the whole sorry affair is that the general British reaction to the Spanish veto (politicians, press) seems overblown, a bit embarrassing and worrying.

How do you propose ..... Now if we spoke German we would phrase this in a more impersonal way "Wie schlägt man vor ......."
We could use 'How does one propose"' but it sounds a bit forced these days.

I feel a bit Emperors New Clothes here - but am I missing something in the negotiating guidelines? As far as I can see, they say that the EU won't agree something with the UK on Gibraltar unless it has been agreed between the UK and Spain.

How is that a Spanish veto on the UK's deal with the EU?

Has anyone actually read the negotiating guidelines?