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Original poster

To think Gibraltar should just be repatriated to Spain

173 replies

brexitstolemyfuture · 01/04/2017 13:01

Sorry couldn't find a thread on this, but shouldn't it just be part of Spain? It's a bit ridiculous that it's causing such tension. As someone Spanish said it's like Spain owing Penzance, people would not be happy with that.

OP posts:
foxyloxy78 · 01/04/2017 22:22

Yes they need to give it back to Spain.

foxyloxy78 · 01/04/2017 22:22

Jose. Not Hose.

dancingdaffs · 01/04/2017 22:32

Yes they need to give it back to Spain

Why?

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2017 22:56

dancing Because it'd be one less problem. 99 problems but a Gibraltarian ain't one!

scottishdiem · 01/04/2017 22:59

This is one of many many many issues that Brexiters care about.

dancingdaffs · 01/04/2017 23:06

Because it'd be one less problem

Nice.

George1970 · 01/04/2017 23:09

Spain can have Scotland for free.

Hamiltoes · 01/04/2017 23:27

Only if they can slice us at the border and ship us down to warmer climates.

Renniehorta · 01/04/2017 23:28

The basic problem is that Gibraltarians cannot stay British and in the EU. So they will have to make a choice. It's up to them.

You can hardly blame the Spanish for exploiting an opportunity that has been handed to them on a plate by Brexit.

There will be many more cases of this. Just grist to the mill of the right wing press. 'Johnny Foreigner' out to thwart the will of 37% of the British people.

Peregrina · 01/04/2017 23:40

Spain has tried to bully Gib over a period of many years, this is just the latest example and was entirely expected by everyone except, it seems, the British government.

Genuine questions:

In recent history Spain had a Dictatorship. How would the coming of Democracy change attitudes towards Spain?

There was a huge vote to Remain in the EU. What was driving that vote - was it solely economics?

No doubt Spain has to take a firm line on this. Suppose the UK throws in the towel on Gibraltar ( - it no longer has an Empire, so it no longer needs access to the Suez canal to service the Empire -) so would this not put pressure on Spain to give up its N African enclaves? And pressure any other ex - colonial powers in the EU with similar territories dotted around?

Re Hong Kong - as has been said, on another thread I think, when it came down to it, China had much greater military might than the UK, and no one else was prepared to back the UK against China.

llangennith · 01/04/2017 23:43

OP you need to learn about the history of Gibraltar before you make idiotic statements. Do you know how long it's been British?

scottishdiem · 01/04/2017 23:51

Spain wont actually just take back Gibralter. There is aspects of international law and rights to self-determination that could stop that I think.

However, Brexit was about controlling our borders apparently. If we are annoyed by Europeans coming and going here then why should Spain not also be bothered by the Brits coming and going out of Gibraltar. A single customs booth would stop freedom of movement and really cause problems. That is what is more likely to happen along with changes to tax issues around ownership of property in Spain and location of servers for online gambling.

Or the UK gives in and jointly governs with Spain.

Renniehorta · 01/04/2017 23:52

Spain is continuing as a member of a club that the U.K. has decided to leave. Why are Brits surprised when the club takes the side of a member. There would be hell to pay if the boot were on the other foot.

Peregrina · 01/04/2017 23:56

If at sometime in the past, another country - Spain, the Netherlands, France - pick one we have been to war with, had captured the Lizard Pennisula, with its possession confirmed by a treaty and thus gave that country control of the Western Approaches and access to the Channel, do you think we would not be a bit cheesed off about the situation? Especially if the Cornish residents fled when the fighting happened so the capturing country took over?

The only thing that is surprising is that the Government seem unprepared. No scrap that, there lack of preparation is the only unsurprising thing.

scaryteacher · 01/04/2017 23:59

Peregrina We have warships in Bahrain at the new naval base there; we still send ships and submarines through the Suez Canal, and using the canal is the quickest way to Bahrain. As long as we have a Navy, have ties and interests in the Middle East, and maintain a presence in the Gulf, then we use the Suez Canal. Gib is just too strategic to let go.

dancingdaffs · 02/04/2017 00:01

The basic problem is that Gibraltarians cannot stay British and in the EU. So they will have to make a choice. It's up to them.

It's worse than that. The EU could, at Spain's insistence, refuse to trade with Gib at all, or seek to impose such tariffs as to make it economically unsustainable. Remember, the EU are trying to insist that Spain has the final word on this and, as I said before, Spain's policy is, and has always been, to isolate Gib as much as possible.

Peregrina · 02/04/2017 00:01

sorry their not there.

scaryteacher · 02/04/2017 00:04

Rennie The Spanish need to remember that they are in another club based in Brussels with us, and one moreover to which they do not contribute as per the agreements they have signed. Life could get uncomfortable in that club.

Peregrina · 02/04/2017 00:05

The EU could, at Spain's insistence, refuse to trade with Gib at all,

I think most would hope it wouldn't come to that. As has already been said, thousands of Spaniards cross the border to work there, from an area where there isn't much work, so the current arrangement is mutually beneficial.

scaryteacher · 02/04/2017 00:06

Peregrina The Cornish would have dealt with them by now. That's why we have mine shafts!!!!

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 02/04/2017 00:25

dancing
A different side to the story:

The treaty specifically states that Gibraltar has no territorial waters. From Spain's point of view there is no such thing as British waters around Gibraltar.

The airport is built on no man's land.

I believe that the position of the United Nations is that Gibraltar is a colony - that it is documented that the original population was displaced by force by incomers. You might disagree with that but that is their position, and their focus is more on the rights of the original population than those of the "new" settlers.

Gibraltar is a very active smuggling point hence the need for searches (mainly loss of tax revenue to the Spain from tobacco sales).

The Canary islands never belonged to Morocco. The cities on the North of Morocco were built by the Spanish before Morocco even existed. And I don't think the Spanish are too bothered about them TBH - or about Gibraltar. It is natural that they want a say on what happens - remember it is their border- think about Calais. All of a sudden Spain could find itself having to manage a new EU-nonEU land border. Why wouldn't they want to have a say?

I am finding all this nationalistic reaction quite shrill and a bit sad (are we really going to send the Navy??? Don't we have any pressing matters to deal with? Hmm).

To me the surprise is not that Spain wants a say in what happens- it is that the other 26 countries don't... my expectation was that all countries would have to agree on every single point of the negotiation.

dancingdaffs · 02/04/2017 01:21

Elvira

Yup, you're right. I don't agree with that.

ColouringMandalas · 02/04/2017 01:40

Maybe the 30,000 Spaniards in Edinburgh are just the advance landing party George1970.

TBH, if I got to choose between faded colonial powers with ridiculous class systems and an undue sense of superiority as remote rulers George, I'd prefer the option to go to Madrid passport free than London.

We'd give 'em fish, they'd give us vegetables. And we could join the Basques and the Catalans as thorns in the side of central government. We'd probably also finally tip voting in Spain enough that the PPP would finally lose the reins.

Even if Francoism did re-emerge, loads of Scots fought on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War already.

Carolinesbeanies · 02/04/2017 02:36

Just to provide some seriously missing understanding here, heres an article from January this year. It explains Gibraltas view probably far better than I could, and why assuming the vote to remain was indeed not the eu support posters here believe it to be. Its also wrong to assume, (despite mainstream media attempts) that this issue wasnt forseen by the government. TM quite rightly was not going to red flag an issue before there was an issue to red flag. It was entirely correct to let the EU council, lay out their stall.

Spains stance is far from a surprise, and more importantly, the Gibraltans were expecting it.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/gibraltar-voted-overwhelmingly-to-stay-in-eu-but-not-at-any-price-1.2952620

Smitff · 02/04/2017 03:16

The fates of Gibraltar and the hundreds of thousands of expats on the coast are interlinked. That's where the deal with Spain will happen.