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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Gibraltar should just be repatriated to Spain

173 replies

brexitstolemyfuture · 01/04/2017 13:01

Sorry couldn't find a thread on this, but shouldn't it just be part of Spain? It's a bit ridiculous that it's causing such tension. As someone Spanish said it's like Spain owing Penzance, people would not be happy with that.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2017 19:57

It's not about moral judgement; it's just the EU siding with its member, Spain
The Uk has now lost its influence in the EU

Peregrina · 01/04/2017 19:57

Sorry that should have said 1992 when Patten lost his Parliamentary seat, hence having time to take up the Governorship which was from 1992 - 1997. This makes my point more effective. He had five years to work on the transfer, which happened in 1997. Not like the Referendum at all, where they have done nothing much for nine months, cobbling together a White Paper when forced to, with at least one howler in it, and are only now beginning to wake up to the problems.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2017 20:09

HK had to be handed over unless the UK was prepared for military confrontation with China, whose armed forces number over 2 million, vs Uk with about 150k service personnel.

Totally outgunned
The US was not interested in helping, nor was anyone else.

Gibraltar is totally different: Spain may veto a trade deal, but has no military intentions.

If the UK cares enough about Gibraltar, then it doesn't have to accept a deal that Gibraltar opposes.
However, people voted for Brexit ignoring what would happen to Gibraltar - and to NI.

Would the UK govt and public wish to turn down a good trade deal for 65 million people because 40,000 Gibralterians oppose it ?

zzzzz · 01/04/2017 20:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zzzzz · 01/04/2017 20:17

This reply has been deleted

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Veterinari · 01/04/2017 20:21

It's just another Brexit Fuck up
Add it to the list

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2017 20:36

BurnTheBlackSuit I agree. Referendums seem to be the theme du jour!

BMW6 · 01/04/2017 20:40

Up to the inhabitants of Gibraltar as far as I am concerned - and as PP have pointed out, why is Spain not giving back the African territories it is hanging onto........

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2017 20:44

My only issue with this is that I genuinely don't think that most populations really understand what it is they are genuinely voting for. I spoke to many people that thought the money we send to the EU could be redirected to the NHS. And at that there'd be no leaving bill. It's not that I spend my time with bigots or fools but I certainly don't think that referendum after referendum is conducive. Granted I agree that it's been a while since there was such political shake up so therefore a lot of people who hadn't voted on their future were given the opportunity to do so. Odd how the generation(s) most likely to be affected by these changes largely voted to stay.
Nicola Sturgeon should press on and Theresa must be thanking her lucky stars about Wales.

Dawndonnaagain · 01/04/2017 20:46

We don't want to go back to Spain. We voted not to quite some time ago. Oh, and we're not flooded with Brits, there are rules, quite strict ones about living in Gib.

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2017 20:49

BMW6 Because it's not a game of fairness nor tit for tat. Those asking about those Islands are being somewhat naive in their argument. The EU has squarely sided with Spain because Spain is still a part of their team. The islands mentioned are straw men arguments. The morality behind that is of course up for debate but in this instance it's not. It really is a case of 'you wanted out of our team so now we're siding with your opposite teammate.'

Renniehorta · 01/04/2017 20:54

Well Theresa May has encouraged everyone to take advantage of the opportunities that Brexit will create. So the Spanish government have followed her advice.

I suspect that a fair number of other EU member governments will also seek to exploit opportunities thrown up for them by Brexit.

Toadinthehole · 01/04/2017 20:55

Gibraltar has been ruled by Britain for longer than it was ruled by Spain. It was a useful naval base. Probably not any longer though, as the RN doesn't have the ships.

It's a major route for smuggling into Spain, and it's also the location of lots of online gambling.

Oh, and it's also one of many British-ruled tax havens.

Which is why Britain should keep hold of it. If sometime is going to make money out of tax dodging, or for that matter, fraud and money-laundering, it might as well be us.

Peregrina · 01/04/2017 20:59

If sometime is going to make money out of tax dodging, or for that matter, fraud and money-laundering, it might as well be us. Grin

Besides, we don't have much to sell, so we need the money.

dancingdaffs · 01/04/2017 21:06

My mum was Gibraltarian and I still have family living there.

There have been several referenda as to whether Gibraltar should remain British, the overwhelming response has always been 'yes'. The people are British citizens and have no wish to become Spanish.

To those who have asked, English is the official language but all Gibraltarians are bi-lingual, speaking both English and Spanish.

Spain has tried to bully Gib over a period of many years, this is just the latest example and was entirely expected by everyone except, it seems, the British government. As a previous poster upthread said, prior to joining the EU which forbids the restriction of movement, there were long periods during which no-one was permitted to cross the border, flights to Gib were denied access to Spanish airspace and so had to go round and take longer, water had to be shipped in tankers via Morocco during periods of drought, fishing vessels in British territorial waters were harassed. Even now, the queues to cross the border are horrendous as cars are searched inch by inch and individuals are body searched, all done deliberately to make the process as painfully slow as possible. They can't at the moment stop people crossing the border but they make it as difficult as they want.

What Spain would really like to see is the closure of the airport. The water supply is now secure so that is no longer a point of leverage.

The whole idea is, and has always been, to try and isolate Gibraltar and its people so that they give in and ask to become part of Spain. I wouldn't be surprised if Spain closed the border on the day the UK officially leaves the EU.

Gibraltar has had to deal with all of this before, and, if necessary, will do so again.

The whole thing is a just an example of how the UK now stands in relation to the EU; prior to Brexit, the EU took no sides over Gibraltar as both the UK and Spain were members of the EU. Now that we are leaving, the EU will actively support the claims of its member state, ie, Spain.

This is just the beginning. We will see this stance again and again over the coming years; the EU will fight hard for and prioritise its member states in all negotiations, be they on trade, finance or diplomacy.

Would the UK give up Gib in order to negotiate a trade deal with the EU? I would hope not,and the government say not, but the temptation must always be there. Historically, Gib was strategically important as it's positioned at the gateway to Mediterranean and so could, and did, control shipping movements in and out of the Med. This became less important with the advent of nuclear weapons and the military presence decreased, but in the current climate in the middle east, who knows?

Just another one of a series of bargaining chips in this sad and sorry process.

thelostboy · 01/04/2017 21:08

Hardly the same as HK. We had a lease on HK, the lease ran out.

Gibraltar was unpopulated when we took it over in 1780 or whenever it was. And thousands of Spaniards cross the border every day to work there, who won't be happy if the hard border goes up, as it does occasionally when the Spanish have a tizzy fit about it.

Still, if Europe are adamant they want to return to the borders of 1780, it's only fair they ALL have to play that game. What could go wrong with that plan?

ForalltheSaints · 01/04/2017 21:12

The surprise is not that Spain wants to play this card, it is that the other 26 countries have appeared to support them.

VladmirsPoutine · 01/04/2017 21:19

The surprise is not that Spain wants to play this card, it is that the other 26 countries have appeared to support them.

Well for a start it's 27. But no they haven't. The other member states couldn't give a solitary shit. If anything, you can accuse them of being passive but why the hell not. They are all part of one team. Why should any of them come out to defend the morality of the Gibraltar situation. Politics doesn't work like that.

zzzzz · 01/04/2017 21:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Carolinesbeanies · 01/04/2017 21:36

"but you don't just get to overrule what the population want and give away their home."

Not only that, but I can assure you, the Falklands is very recent history. Whilst talk of NI, Falklands etc may seem like detatched ancient history to the under 30s, I still have an embroidered napkin that was given to my Uncle in NI, saying "God bless our Security Forces".

He knew why he was there in the 70s/80s. The locals told him. Falkland Islanders the same.

Spain taking the opportunity to posture over Gibralta is a massive political mistake. If you think Brits back off when bullies think theyve got the upper hand, just look for a yellow car in Bilbury this evening. Thats what makes me proud to be british.

Carolinesbeanies · 01/04/2017 21:43

Dancingdaffs, as long as the Gibraltans wish to remain british, be assured the mainland wont abandon them. Bring it on Spain. With 40% youth unemployment and Catelonia squaring up also, just whose got the stomach for this? Clearly some deluded bluff and blusterer in brussels.....

counterpoint · 01/04/2017 21:45

And what about handing back the British Bases to Cyprus?

DalekBred · 01/04/2017 21:47

Gibraltars been British for over 300 years and Spain has NEVER stopped trying to own it.

Brexits yet another excuse.

How the Hell can Spain have a say in what goes on with Gob when Gibs BRITISH?

Yes the people there are Gibraltan but they are also BRITISH.

IM a Londoner but also BRITISH.

and yy what about the Falklands and the rest? all the commonwealth countries?

FFS.

Althouh I believe Gib wanted self determination a number of years back.

Spain have no rights at all. bloody Eu bullies.

BarbarianMum · 01/04/2017 21:48

"but you don't just get to overrule what the population want and give away their home."

So who gets to decide the future of Israel and the occupied territories? Just Israelis? Or should the displaced Palestinian population get a say? What about Tibet - ethnic Tibetians only? What about the ethnically Chinese population who live their now ?

notangelinajolie · 01/04/2017 22:02

It wont happen. No way Hose.