To think Gibraltar should just be repatriated to Spain

[brexitstolemyfuture]

Sorry couldn't find a thread on this, but shouldn't it just be part of Spain? It's a bit ridiculous that it's causing such tension. As someone Spanish said it's like Spain owing Penzance, people would not be happy with that.

The border was permanently closed between 1969 and 1985. To get from Spain to Gibraltar, you had to go via the UK. Bit like Cyprus today.

It's a complex issue but, morally I agree with you.

I notice that the OP hasn't answered about Ceuta and Melilla yet?

Hmm, not sure gunboat diplomacy will be particularly helpful...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-navy-warships-must-be-sent-to-gibraltar-to-protect-it-from-spain-during-brexit-negotiations-a7169391.html

I lived in Gibraltar between 1983-1985. Flights into Gibraltar could not cross Spanish airspace (don't know if this is still the case), but was the reason why flights took a much longer route flying around Spain and if the weather was bad enough that flights couldn't land, they were redirected to morocco until the weather cleared because the Spanish would not allow them to land there (this was always a worry i you were flying as an unaccompanied child, as I did).

The water was shipped in from the UK and you could only buy nasty tasting UHT milk from the supermarkets.

As a child, the border being closed was a good thing because we all got much more freedom than we might have otherwise been allowed (it's not like we could go very far after all), but for the adults I guess it must have been restrictive. I was at one of the two schools where the Forces children went to and there were very few Gibraltarians in the school. However, I do remember the ones that were at school barely spoke Spanish. I don't know if that has changed now, I would assume so.

JeNeSuis the whole point is that the Treaty was drawn up in such a way that it couldn't be challenged, ever . Gibraltar has been of vital strategic military importance for years. Spain may not agree with how things are, but I doubt they agreed at the time the treaty was signed either. I'm sure that Gibraltar wasn't mentioned in the Brexit talks as it is a complete non starter as a bargaining chip. Legally I don't think we can give it back either.

I too would like to know the OP's views on Ceuta etc. There is a deafening silence there.

From my experience, most gibraltarians these days are pretty much bilingual.

It's crypto say there were no Spaniards living in Gibralter when the British took over. There were and they were forced out.

The people there want to stay British, that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. And it's not like here with Brexit. It is an overwhelming majority. The few people who voted to be Spanish and let on were not popular for a while. It's disgusting the government don't care more about the people there

They also voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

Perhaps Gibraltar could go back to Spain, and those who want to could stay, and those who don't could be give assistance with resettlement in the UK?

Yabu. It is wrong to give their country away. From what I understand, in the 90s, Britain was prepared to give Spain dual sovereignty but the people of Gibraltar were vehemently opposed to even this. They don't want Spain to have say on their country whatsoever. If the people living there want to remain British then they should be allowed to.

I think it is morally wrong of the EU to give Spain this veto.

Perhaps Gibraltar could go back to Spain, and those who want to could stay, and those who don't could be give assistance with resettlement in the UK?

What if your entire county was handed over to another country, and you were given the choice to either become a national of that country or move to the other side of the UK?
The Gibraltans are Gibraltan not Spanish. They aren't English either, not culturally. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Britain annexing Gibraltar it isn't fair on the inhabitants to force them to repatriate or accept an entirely new nationality and government against their will.

it isn't fair on the inhabitants to force them to repatriate or accept an entirely new nationality and government against their will

I agree with that. But is it fair to take them out of the EU against their will which is going to really fuck things up? Rock and a hard place...

I think that maybe they should have another referendum after Brexit and decide UK or EU then. Afterall, everything will have changed for them since 2013.

None of this is fair tbh. A minority of British people voted for brexit, a significant number of whom were totally uninformed and motivated by racism. (I'm not saying all remainers were informed either, that's kind of the point) and now millions of people are going to be fucked through no choice of their own.
I can't see how handing Gibraltar over to Spain will solve the people of Gibraltar's concerns at all, but equally they will be stuffed once we leave

My Gibraltarian friends, not Brits, many generations Gibraltarian, voted no.

They voted by a landslide (99% of votes) to stay British. So no, it shouldn't be returned to Spain.

They also voted by a landslide (96% of votes) to stay in the EU. So it's quite a bit more complicated now.

Although they have voted to stay with Britain in the past, 91% of them voted to stay with the EU. And many workers there are Spanish so they may well have problems if border controls are tightened. Time for them to choose again, Britain or the EU - same choice as for Scotland really!

The English don't exactly have a shining record on this sort of thing. I don't think the people of Hong Kong were given the choice, were they?

Hnbane The UK had Hong Kong on a 99 year lease, so the handback date was known since the start of British rule. Totally different deal.

It's not about returning Gibraltar to right some supposedly terrible historical wrong.

It's just that until now, the EU didn't take sides in this long-running dispute between the UK and Spain

However, the UK is leaving soon, so naturally the EU sides with its member, Spain, not its soon to be no -member, the UK.
After Brexit, unless there is a deal, the UK would be treated like any of the other 170 or so countries not in the EU, wrt trade or many other issues.

So, the EU will allow Spain to veto any Brexit deal if it is not satisfied with the status of Gibraltar within that deal.

In practice, any E27 country could probably block a Brexit deal if it feels its own interests have not been sufficiently considered
e.g. Poland wrt its expats in the UK.

Once the Brexit terms are known, then Gibraltar, like Scotland, needs another referendum to decide if it wants to remain British.

The UK had Hong Kong on a 99 year lease, so the handback date was known since the start of British rule. Totally different deal.

Not quite so simple as that. It was only the New Territories which were on a long lease but by the time the hand-over was approaching, it was realised that they couldn't realistically be separated from the rest of Hong Kong, hence the whole lot got handed over, despite parts having been ceded to the UK supposedly in perpetuity.

Then again, plans were put in hand in advance to organise the hand over. Old Fatty Pang, otherwise known as Chris Patten, lost his seat in the 1997 election and was available to take up the Governorship of Hong Kong in time to work on the transfer. So it wasn't that they waited until 1998 and woke up as the lease expired and thought "Oh shit, we've got to sort something out". Unlike the Referendum.