I am scared of the kind of society we are becoming?

[brasty]

More and more as a society we seem to be losing empathy for people who are struggling. From those on benefits, to those in overcrowded houses, to disabled and ill people. If individuals think they would not find themselves in that situation, then any empathy seems to disappear.

Not everyone has the same personal resources. Some people are struggling just to get through every day and so eating healthily is not a priority. It is not accident that those with severe mental health problems tend to have worse physical health and higher levels of harmful behavior such as smoking.

Being chronically disabled is shit and makes life much much harder than those who have never experienced it realise. And yes someone may be "lucky" to have social housing, but how about having some empathy if they are struggling in an overcrowded house.

It scares me. This lack of empathy has real affects, Cuts are being made to benefits for disabled people, only because most people simply don't care enough.

I know you are speaking hypothetically but even in that situation, people wouldn't work together for very long before people started getting greedy and trying to get more for themselves

To the PP who asked why I became a first aider - in my old job we were offered a small annual bonus. Plus I don't mind the sight of blood and thought it might be interesting. I have just retrained but I don't get a bonus in this job.

luvia

I wish I didn't care so much. Or I wish I could turn off the 'caring' side of me. Would make life a lot easier.

I know you are speaking hypothetically but even in that situation, people wouldn't work together for very long before people started getting greedy and trying to get more for themselves

I listen to a comedy show called My First Planet. On that, there's no money but a barter system develops - people start trading services and skills. It ends up badly

Altruism vs selfishness. I suppose it's on a spectrum.

I recommend

The ragged trousered philanthropist
Anything by Noam Chomsky
Affluenza...

Sorry must stop or you'll have a library worth to read!

I am with you OP, I did sea the whole lot!

Just today I lamented to my children, that I was sad about the world they were growing up in and how its so different in the years since I was a school. I know everyone is rose tinted. But the way people are treated now is different, its all about me, my rights, my life , my choices and there is the idea that you are a island and what you do effects no one, even if it did , that's not your problem.

Just today I had a row with a woman who had parked blocking the whole pavement, meaning I could not get passed on my mobility scooter, I was amazed by the attack I got from a fellow parent, I would never have dreamed of verbally attacking a disabled person under any circumstance, but certainly not when I was clearly causing them difficulty.
But this person, apparently was perfectly OK with not only blocking the whole path (because she had to park somewhere, and the car park was 50ft too far away) not concerned in the slightest when she became aware she was stopping me getting passed, then when I gestured that to her, she was indignant that I might think she should move. I certainly would not have said the hideous things she said to me and definately not in front of the children.
I just don't get it!
There is no humility anymore, everyone is so busy and important, so no one slows down to think before they act.

But a happy society wouldn't stay that way. There is always going to be an element of greed, people want what others have. Even very young children want the toy that their brother has or whatever.

And if a happy society benefits everyone then you would think the super rich would see the benefits to themselves...

Graph Who was the reading list for?

Even very young children want the toy that their brother has or whatever

What if no one owned anything....and we all shared stuff?

But then someone would want a better house, better room etc

Businessasusual but all welcome

But unless you totally change human nature, then sharing doesn't work! It relies on everyone being compliant, I would bet anything that that wouldn't be the case

But unless you totally change human nature

If children were brought up in a society like that, would that just be human nature?

To share, to look out for each other...

Yeah, of course there will always be an element of competition and wrong doing in any society as there are less desirable sides to human nature (and brain conditions like psychopathy etc) but it's the way it is dealt with that matters. In aboriginal culture, there is a fundamental belief in rehabilitation, seeking of forgiveness by the community and making amends for the wrong doing.

The super wealthy want to stay that way so there's no interest in sharing for them but I'm willing to bet that they have bought to the notion of those deserving and those not. Even those who have not worked for what they have believe they have done something deserving of it instead of recognising their incredible good fortune.

I realise I'm massively generalising and over simplifying but what I was trying to say is that we need a culture shift before things change. I don't know how that will happen (probably WW3) but if we each do a small bit and try to reject the bullshit messages we are fed, then we would all be happier and start creating that shift in culture.

No because I think there is something inherent in most people which wouldn't accept that long term. They would want more than someone else. You can't rid humans of the most basic things like selfishness and greed and violence. They are obviously stronger in some than others but they are there

You can't rid humans of the most basic things like selfishness and greed and violence

The human race has done quite well, hasn't it?

People might always want more but is a system of society (true communism for example) where it is disallowed, really that inconceivable? Possibly from where we are currently which is the polar opposite but I hope we eventually find our way there.

I have never bought into the notion of dressing a certain way or being slim or whatever. I have seen the messages but for some reason I reacted strongly against them.
And, short of governmental mind control a la 1984 (my absolute favourite book), there will always be people who think a different way from the 'norm' so it wouldn't be controllable

If aliens arrived, could we justify our planet. Such inequality. People dying because of lack of water and public health. Others living in the lap of luxury.

Or would we say that capitalism helps bring progress and drives improvements?

It's done quite well because it has that core of selfishness and self-interest.

You disallow people from wanting things - how would that work? Do you think people will happily sit in their brown overalls being content with their lot in life?

There would still have to be a type of government so people aspire to be there, they get powers and it's back to square one

the vast majority of posters agreed, and objected to the poorest working people getting a little more....I find that alarming, but have to hope mumsnet views don't reflect wider society

Coast, I read that thread and thought exactly the same. No one seemed to have any sense of the fact that poverty is a relative concept, so that if everyone else's salary increases in line with the minimum wage, then the poorest are simply relegated all over again to being...the poorest. Hard to escape the sense that, subliminally at least, many people still think the poor ought to know their place, and keep knowing it.

And fwiw, I think society at large is rather less empathic/altruistic than the average mumsnetter.

The thought of a truly communist society fills me with horror - I would literally top myself as I couldn't life in that

Thanks for the reading list Graphista. My to read list is already very long but a couple of those already feature.

No, I don't necessarily mean communism, perhaps something like it. When I think of communism, I don't think of people all dressed the same, living in equal sized units as many people do. I imagine it as a society that values decent human qualities, that respects people's differences and choices, that doesn't promote greed or having 'stuff' just for the sake of it or as a measure of anything important, where wealth and power is shared more fairly, where we are actually equal.

egosum, I guess we would be judged by the aliens' culture and measure of success as to how we are doing as a species.

We're quite successful if thinking about how populous we've become but then so are bacteria, even more so. If thinking about it from the point of view of equality and fairness, we're failing badly.

1984 does not describe communism even Orwell said that, it describes how Stalin bastardised communism for his own agenda. Animal farm is a sort of prequel of 1984.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

"All animals are equal" withOUT the addition of "but some are more equal than others"

It's nothing to do with everyone dressing the same or even everyone having the same, it's about true equality and fairness of treatment.

I know it doesn't describe actual communism.

But there's no reason to think that society wouldn't follow exactly the same path, however well intentioned.

Greed and selfishness are part of being human