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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I am scared of the kind of society we are becoming?

335 replies

brasty · 29/03/2017 11:10

More and more as a society we seem to be losing empathy for people who are struggling. From those on benefits, to those in overcrowded houses, to disabled and ill people. If individuals think they would not find themselves in that situation, then any empathy seems to disappear.

Not everyone has the same personal resources. Some people are struggling just to get through every day and so eating healthily is not a priority. It is not accident that those with severe mental health problems tend to have worse physical health and higher levels of harmful behavior such as smoking.

Being chronically disabled is shit and makes life much much harder than those who have never experienced it realise. And yes someone may be "lucky" to have social housing, but how about having some empathy if they are struggling in an overcrowded house.

It scares me. This lack of empathy has real affects, Cuts are being made to benefits for disabled people, only because most people simply don't care enough.

OP posts:
LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 18:22

I don't know why people enter caring professions.

I'm not saying everyone in the world is bad but those who aren't are in the minority. The reason people report on 'random acts of kindness' or whatever is that they are rare.

I would do almost anything for a friend.
I would not extend that to a stranger because I don't know that person, they are irrelevant to me as I am to them. It works both ways.

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 18:24

I don't know why people enter caring professions

To make society a better place?
To help others in need
To give something back

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 18:27

I am cynical about people's motivations. I am more comfortable if strangers keep their distance and I will extend the same courtesy.

A few times I have cried on the train or elsewhere in public - not sobbing, just that quiet crying. Someone will sometimes come up to me and ask if I'm alright. I say yes thanks and move away. They then will try to hug me - many people obviously see that as 'kind' but it makes my anxiety shoot through the roof. why do they do that? It's not for my benefit as I'm clearly uncomfortable with it.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 18:28

I meant that I can't comment on their motivation for doing that job.

EnormousTiger · 31/03/2017 19:47

My view is that most people are very good and we have seen that time after time in this family, from people returning lost wallets to all kinds of other things and people helping strangers. The kindness of strangers is absolutely amazing and these things cross all borders. Most people are very hospitable.

Livia, if you cry on trains (not something I have ever done once, cried in public etc I thought the British tended not to do that) I don't think it's unreasonable if people want to help. They are being kind.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 20:22

We don't tend to do that but I was having a really bad depression episode and was crying several times a day.

They mean well but when I'm taking a step back from them they don't seem to let that stop them. It's not kind to hug someone who doesn't want it be hugged.

So if everyone is allowed to get on with their lives, it makes life simpler and less stressful.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 20:26

People virtue signal on here all the time, they can't wait to post about how kind they have been to some random person - that's not about the person, that is about an ego boost for the helper.

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 20:29

It's not kind to hug someone who doesn't want it be hugged

No, it's not.

So if everyone is allowed to get on with their lives, it makes life simpler and less stressful

If I saw a stranger who seemed lost, upset, confused and in need, I would hope that I would ask if they needed anything. I don't do that to make me feel good - it's just who I am.

But then again, I can walk past homeless people. So it's more complex than that. I probably think I can't help there.

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 20:31

People virtue signal on here all the time, they can't wait to post about how kind they have been to some random person

There was an interesting R4 moral maze on that - how people don't need to 'virtue signal' to show they are kind. But we signal all the time about how we are.

Graphista · 31/03/2017 21:29

PinkFlamingo your attitude is EXACTLY what the op is talking about.

"If that makes me a bad person then, really I don't care" clearly! Yet I'm sure you'd expect help from others if 'you & yours' needed it - or are you self sufficient? Hmm

Just curious - what nationality is your surname at birth? Are you blonde, blue-eyed and fair skinned? Are you taller/shorter than average? Chances are like many 'true brits' you're actually not. There WILL have been members of your family that were immigrants at some point (probably European but possibly from Africa or Asia even if you tick the 'white British' box on forms).

"The country you live in is an accident of birth and nothing more. No one has worked to be born where they are lucky for us we were born here"

As for your 'prediction' on the new planet theory - you've ignored the skills those new people have brought to that society, their worth in labour which will contribute to the growing of resources etc

"And to this planet the new arrivals bring their labour - and even new skills and ideas - and give their blood sweat and tears, and help the planet continue to thrive, and support the now ageing original inhabitants who can no longer work.

Some of whom sit around bitching about the newcomers even while their arses are being wiped by the newcomers and their pensions paid by the taxes paid by and business wealth created by the newcomers."

digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

almondpudding
"We do have a greater responsibility to people who are residents of the UK that we do not have to other people, as we are part of the same legal, economic and democratic state. That is surely a matter of fact?" Oh really? What about people that inhabited/inhabit British overseas territories? Who's resources we plundered, people we enslaved and profited from, who's politics and religion we used for our own advantage?

comfortandjoyce
"It's how literally every country on the planet is organised - to take care of its own citizens first, last, and always." You sure about that? how about Stalins great purge, Mao's famine, Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, pol pot, Kim il sung, Rwanda, hitler & nazis, Foday sankoh, papa doc, general Franco, Pinochet, Yugoslavia, Chechnya want more?

Graphista · 31/03/2017 21:30

Doyouwantabrew I think addiction is extremely complex. I come from a family full of addicts. I believe it's a combination of choice, genes, (physiology, biochemistry), learned behaviour and wider environment. I am so sorry for what happened to your daughter. Doesn't make what I said less true. And as a nurse you should be well aware of the studies that show that addiction is not just choice.

"You are a volunteer so that's a totally different role with no responsibility to help change attitudes and reverse behaviours." You don't know brasty's voluntary role so you don't know that and there's no need to be so condescending! I WAS a nurse to change attitudes and reverse behaviours you START with empathy, compassion and understanding in order to make a connection.

EnormousTiger · 31/03/2017 21:34

The Bible (and I presumethe Koran) say if you are going to do good works do them in secret. Don't go around with a big I am a large charitable donor or I spend every Christmas with the sick notice around your neck.

Graphista · 31/03/2017 21:41

dragongirl oh wow! Here - start reading! 🙄

The fact is there is enough food/money/resources/compassion/empathy/love to go round IF distribution/society were organised by people who weren't greedy and power hungry. But sadly TRUE communism (not the bastardisation Stalin & Mao et al twisted it into) will never happen.

'Look after our own first' well surely 'our own' is the entire human race? Divisions along arbitrary borders, false ideas of differing language/culture/religion/race are nonsensical!

"I don't see how that number of people can be blamed for years and years of lack of forethought and funding when it comes to the UK's infrastructure" me neither!

Much as I hate the current govt (actually I can't recall us having a govt I DID like) generally speaking in Britain (and the rest of the world) there have always been people concerned about and trying to help those not doing as well, (though its taken time to learn that eg mental illness/epilepsy/birth defects/learning disabilities are not satanic possession/a punishment from God etc.)

We've also included in that helping, supporting and welcoming immigrants (I don't include invaders in that).

We are currently a wealthy country and we do have the money to help both British born and immigrants/refugees.

Charities like comic relief DO also help British people as well as overseas. Some that people perceive as only helping overseas do (save the children, unicef, Red Cross).

That said

"Becoming? At which point in time were we all holding hands and at peace?" This is also true.

"No I think people have always been as they ever were. Some have empathy and some don't." This!

Since cavemen days there's been competition for resources. Evolution is based on 'survival of the fittest' 'adapt or die' but that doesn't mean we can't evolve to be more caring, more egalitarian.

"I think it's a swing. We swung too far to the left and now we are too far to the right" WHEN did we swing too far left?! Confused

"We're heading towards ww3. It's like the world leaders are steering us towards it." I think we're already there just no world leaders admitting it (though I think trump will first and soon).

I agree it's also that we feel overwhelmed -' there are too many people needing our help.'

"I judge. I judge all those out there who don't really give a damn about other people." Me too.

"The fact is, we have too many people for our infrastructure" except we HAVE the money/resources/skills/people to grow the infrastructure! In fact it would create jobs and boost the economy. So why don't we? It can't possibly be anything to do with the 1%ers wanting to keep power/control could it? Hmm

"I think these bloody programmes on tv have a lot to answer for, you know the 'benefits street' type thing" well exactly BUT who do you think MAKES them? Edits them? Shows them? It's not the poor/disadvantaged is it?

I've had people assuming I'm 'at it' as I don't work due to illness/disability. They judge without knowing me or my circumstances and then if they do get to know 'oh but I don't mean you/people like you' well the vast majority of 'them' ARE people like me!

"The departments are so big and don't communicate either" the entire system is farcical - huge wastage in terms of cock ups alone!

"we have been giving money MILLIONS each year but nothing changes"

www.comicrelief.com/what-we-do/personal-stories

"The vast majority of aid the Government sends abroad is spent trying to ensure our security here. It is not really about aid, but about helping us. That is why the Government refuses to cut the international aid budget." This too - I know someone who works in this area, it's FAR more complex than people realise. It's also about trade relations, reciprocal agreements etc

"It's difficult to expect empathy from people who are struggling too." Actually lots of research shows those with the least give the most in terms of percentage of what they have. In money AND time - 'if you want something done ask a busy person'.

"The ones who don't work believe that they should get more, because others have more." I don't, and I don't know any unemployed person who does.

And YES absintheshots people ARE dying - in the streets, in their homes - as a DIRECT result of the cuts. The one I always think of is the David clapson. (Which I think may be who muffinbluffer is referencing but there have been other similar cases).

"I only meant we don't let people dying on the side of the road, bleeding after a car accident. We still stop and help" for starters you're backtracking. It was clear to me and others what you meant. For another YES people ill and in accidents are dying due to cuts to emergency services.

"Actually it was normal during Thatcher's time. We are going back there" and into Major's.

"if you benchmark the UK against many other countries then it is generally a good place to live, particularly as we have a welfare state and NHS. this is not that common." Have you lived overseas? I have, I have a lot of friends and family that do now. Most developed countries DO have their own form of welfare state and nhs.

GloriaV
"Before the system we looked after ourselves and our own." no 'we' didn't, we had high mortality rates, debtors prisons, baby farms, workhouses...some people who saw this was wrong worked and campaigned to change it.

"People are more accepting of so many things now including women, single parents, homosexuality, race in a way that would have been unthinkable in even my parents time." No I had grandparents who were accepting of everyone, their parents were the same. I don't buy the 'it's their age' defence of racism/bigotry generally.

"A lot of the 'golden age' after the war was funded by the fruits of the British Empire which was funded by exploiting a lot of other people overseas." Very true. Yes we had some money from USA but it didn't come in immediately, we also lured colonial inhabitants to the uk with promises of a welcoming land and well paid jobs. That went well Hmm

Helping doesn't have to mean imposing our culture, our will. When you help someone you do what they need you to do.

mrslupo "Ugh, this thread is reminding me of Caryl Churchill's Top Girls. There are a few people here who could learn something from reading it... although that would require some empathy, of course."

My belief system includes believing what you put into the world you get back threefold, good and bad. As I get older I see this as true more and more.

"It IS a dog eat dog world. In 46 years I have never seen anything to convince me otherwise" that's so sad.

I believe in the sentiment behind this quote:

"We all see what we want to see. Coffey looks and he sees Russians. He sees hate and fear. You have to look with better eyes than that."

"I don't know why people enter caring professions" I can't speak for others but I became a nurse because I enjoyed caring for others, I found it hugely rewarding, I liked the practical elements, I liked meeting people from massively different backgrounds, seeing them get better, or even just being able to make them feel cared for, feel valued (I worked mainly in elderly care which sadly means end of life care mostly).

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 21:50

I can't speak for others but I became a nurse because I enjoyed caring for others

I work in education. I have worked in the NHS but now am in education. I love it. It's hard work and I don't work full time as a teacher. But I don't think I could do anything else. I like encouraging children to develop themselves, to improve and to believe in themselves. I don't know these children when I start, I don't know much about their backgrounds but I just love working in education.

TitaniasCloset · 31/03/2017 21:50

I love your posts on here graphista and absolutely agree.

Graphista · 31/03/2017 22:00

Titaniascloset oh thanks Blush

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 22:05

Why is it sad? I'm not sad about it at all - it's easier in so many ways not to expect things from people

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 22:09

it's easier in so many ways not to expect things from people

In a planet where people were working together and there was no such thing as money (it's a small colony), do you think it would work better if people were out for themselves or if they helped each other?

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 22:09

Ironically I'm the first aider at work so I'm the one who provides a helping hand to people -does my lack of empathy stop me being able to stick a plaster on someone?

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 22:11

But we aren't a small colony and we do have money. So what might work in your scenario bears no relevance to what we are actually experiencing

Graphista · 31/03/2017 22:12

It might affect your ability to help someone having a panic attack

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 22:12

does my lack of empathy stop me being able to stick a plaster on someone

Hopefully not.

What made you become a first aider?

egosumquisum1 · 31/03/2017 22:13

But we aren't a small colony and we do have money

I'm speaking hypothetically.

BusinessAsUnusual · 31/03/2017 22:13

I've not read the full thread so not sure if someone has said similar but I actually think the move towards right wing politics and lack of empathy for others in society is by design. If you google the history of neo-liberal ideology, I believe in the 1940's, it was a conscious decision by some very influential and wealthy people and very cleverly and purposefully filtered into politics.

It is based on a system of capitalism and consumerism as a way of making money for those at the top. We are bombarded 24/7 with the message that we are not good enough as people, we need 'stuff' to make us happy, more successful. Success is not measured in happiness or personal qualities, it is measured by how much your job pays, how flash your car is, how fancy your holidays are. We're told by the media that the 'successful' people are those with money and fame. We worship celebrities as those who have 'made it' whether they actually worked hard for it or not, and people strive to emulate them. Social media is an extension of this - a platform to prove your worth through popularity (friends/followers) and a place to show off all your stuff.

The media tells us that we need to look a certain way - thin, conventionally pretty, well groomed and dressed to look the part of the successful person. This all costs money. And if you don't naturally fit those ideals, you can always pay money for products, clothes, designer gear, cosmetics, plastic surgery.

And the flip side of this is that we are scornful of those who don't have the trappings of success. For the system to work, we have to believe in it so we are fed the message that those who have very little, it must be their fault.

Inherent to this system is the notion of competition. It is not enough for us to have the 'stuff' that makes us successful, we have to be more successful than our neighbours and peers. I obviously can't speak for other cultures, but certainly here in the West, we have developed a culture of always striving. Always looking to the future, always working towards our 'goals' which mostly feature a time when we will have enough money to have all the trappings of success.

This system goes against our very nature as humans as social animals capable of empathy. It is no coincidence that there has been an astronomical rise in depression, anxiety and other mental health problems globally since the move to neoliberalism and capitalism. Some of the happiest societies are those with very little except each other and their communities. We are capable of so much good when we collaborate but empathy and collaboration do not line the pockets of the super powerful and wealthy. We need to buy their solutions to the problems they tell us we have, not help each other.

It is very difficult to understand your own culture, let alone reject it and I find it very hard not to buy into the messages we are bombarded with. But I try my best to stop thinking so much of the future, to appreciate the now and remind myself of what is truly important - the people in my life and the basics of survival. Everything else is a load of bullshit sold to us to make someone already super wealthy just that little bit more so. When we stop valuing things over people, when we value our communities, when we recognise that it's important that everyone has enough to live comfortably (healthcare, food, water, shelter, education, human rights, companionship) because a happy society is something that benefits us all, then we will find our true purpose and rediscover our empathy.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 31/03/2017 22:16

I can sound caring without actually feeling it, iyswim. I have done the training and know what to say and do. I also deal with emotional people as part of my job - as long as I say the right things in the right way, do you think it matters that I'm not feeling what I'm portraying!

As for panic attacks, I'm the one most likely to get them Blush