to start a thread about trans panic because there have only been seventy six already

[GustyParson]

Trans people want to steal your rights! And stroke your cat. They want to colonise your child's reading books, infiltrate your favourite prisons, appropriate the gold medals you would otherwise win for your peerless skills on the pummel horse, take the best seats on the Tube, demand that midwives talk exclusively about pregnant fathers, haunt your preferred changing rooms, run rampant through the Brownie Guides, go unchallenged in every echelon of the WI, burn all your favourite pronouns in an industrial furnace, benefit from all your oppression, demand your pet dog be addressed as Mx, frolic carelessly across the flower bed you've only just planted for God's sake, insist that there are more than two genders, require to be recognised as the gender 'combine harvester' one day and the gender 'quail' the next, piss on the toilet you wanted to reserve for your friends, and call you Cis which is like totally cruel because it sounds like sissy.

Alternatively, trans people are people, they are not trying to hurt you, most of you have never met one, none of you need to feel threatened by them, and there really isn't a need to start fifteen threads a week fretting that they're going to steal your last Bourbon Cream, appropriate or destroy feminism, or change your baby's name from Thomas to Pixie. Seriously, calm down.

Only on FWR.

I just don't understand why it can't be understood that it is essential for some spaces tononly be for girls and women.

we only need to look at the terribly high percentages of girls and women who have been sexually assaulted to surely understand why so many of us feel this is a right we shouldn't even have to defend or discuss

I just don't understand why it can't be understood that it is essential for some spaces tononly be for girls and women.

Because some trans people have such a strong psychological desire to be a woman (when they are not) that any reminder of their inability to become a woman causes them pain. Therefore they demand that any reminder of this is covered up and everyone "plays along", regardless of the damage it could cause to actual women.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Because what you want, or feel is utterly disregarded. It's misogyny at its highest.

And that is very sad they feel that way

And fucking tragic that woman to have to accept it

It should be treated as what it is, a form of personality/identity disturbance and body dysmorphia.

ahamsternest

Exactly. A neurological or biological blip giving you a disgust of your own genitals is awful. And should be treated. It shouldn't be given extra civil rights.

I think people are just afraid because it's the T in LGBT and we're just about moving on from the horrors of "curing" gay people, denying them rights etc.

But it doesn't mean we should just swallow it all whole. This is not about sexuality, it's about identity.

Who a person falls in love with is absolutely nobody else's business as long as the person is of age and not being abused.

But whether XX and XY mean female and male AFFECTS EVERYONE. It is not something a small group of people can decide to change without everyone else's consent.

and we're just about moving on from the horrors of "curing" gay people, denying them rights etc.

Except we really are not, ahamsternest, alas.

'Curing' gay people: gender nonconforming kids groomed and transed instead of left to become the gay and lesbian adults that they'd naturally be. Young lesbians pressured to identify as trans straight men, then told they are the oppressor. Young lesbians told that if they don't forgo their lesbianism and like dick then they are bigots.

denying them rights: want safety, privacy, dignity that comes with women-only space? Yeah, no. Want to take part in the public sphere without fear? Yeah, no.

Couple of pages behind.

Iris - I think you'll find tht its a case of realising that its absolutely hopeless to try and talk any sense or to reason with a lot of posters on these kinds of threads rather than 'Bigot...flounce.'

No, please please please if you can do so, inject some sense and reason into this debate from your point of view. There is a lot of reason and sense on this thread but it's not coming from the pro-transagenda side, as far as I can see. I am desperate for a debate based on reason and sense so if you can do some of that I am happy to engage.

Some people enjoy repeating themselves.

Yes they do, especially @TabascoToastie. They post the same big (and ever expanding!) list of evidence-free 'points' that they think proves something, and then they disappear. Rinse and repeat. Posters have spent a lot of time and energy engaging with this list of 'points' in-depth and repeatedly over the last couple of weeks on lots of threads, using cunning ploys like 'sense' and 'reason' to show exactly where toastie is misinformed or is posting out and out lies, but toastie never comes back and engages in discussion. They just post the same shit again on another thread.

I've just come from reading a thread where Toastie invites people who want to debate The List Of Points to PM them because they won't be back to the thread. Seriously, WTF?! Where does toastie get off? How rude!

In my experience there is nothing that can be posted that will make some posters listen to others or treat other views with respect.

Yes there is. If you can explain, using sense and reason, WHY transwomen are women, I am all ears (NB: a definition of 'woman' will be necessary in this explanation, because sense and reason).

I am just glad that policy makers have a lot more sense than some of the posts on these threads.

Which particular policies are you in favour of and why?

If your arguments have any weight at all then debate them honestly on the thread.

The bullshit asymmetry principle is helpful here.

They just post the same shit again on another thread.

I saw this for the first time on a website about the transwoman cyclist who took a medal from a woman.

The poster kept posting the same paragraph every 15 comments or so. I kept thinking I had scrolled back up by mistake. It was very weird. They never came back to re-engage to the responses, just posted the same paragraph again in another 10 or so posts.

I am wondering if it is a known strategy? The theory being that you will pick up some fresh posters along the way, who haven't seen you repeat yourself dozens of times.

It's so lazy and arrogant.

I've seen it lots of times since.

ahamsternest "I think people are just afraid because it's the T in LGBT and we're just about moving on from the horrors of "curing" gay people, denying them rights etc."

This link may be interesting...

The theory being that you will pick up some fresh posters along the way, who haven't seen you repeat yourself dozens of times

Yes. If people repeat the same stuff again and again,even if it's been shown that the information is flawed and it's been challenged before, there will always be people who've not seen it,not seen it been challenged and dismissed so they will pick up fresh posters.

I've seen some posters do that on here for years.

egosumquisum1

What you see on here is a dialogue and a two way street. People respond to each other. Consistently holding the same opinion isn't the same as constantly cutting and pasting the exact same paragraph every 15 comments without engaging.

egosumquisum1
From your transcript of the New York Times article:

A Virginia case that might have settled the matter was scheduled to be heard by the United States Supreme Court, but when President Trump’s Justice Department rescinded the guidelines, the justices in March sent it back to a lower court to decide.

I was in Virginia a couple of years ago and came across this story in a local newspaper. Gavin Grimm, a transgender teenager, had been granted pemission to use the boys toilets at his high school. He did this for a few months without incident or complaint from other students. After that period, adults started complaining, some of whom were unconnected to the school. Gavin was told he could no longer use the boys' toilets.

Gavin Grimm's story highlights some of the problems with this debate. His situation was a non issue until it became politicised by adults, some with no direct involvement in the situation. In the UK, where e.g. separate toilets are common, I think we can assume that for decades, transwomen and transmen have quietly used women's and men's facilities respectively. Yet now the idea of that happening seems to be a major issue for some people, who propose a system (transgender people using facilities corresponding with biology) that would not only be particularly inhumane for those whose appearance and identity does not reflect their biology, but incredibly difficult to police/enforce.

Does anyone know if transsexuals in the UK get a new birth certificate?

fascicle you or someone else may know this.... Can transexusls have the sex on their birth certificate, in the USA, changed?

If they can then the requirement to use the facilities in line with what is on your birth certificate would seem more accommodating if people who had been through a documented 'physical transition'.

I don't understand why all this has been thrown up in the air now since we know transsexuals have been using toilets etc that correspond with their chosen sex for a long time.

I don't understand why all this has been thrown up in the air now since we know transsexuals have been using toilets etc that correspond with their chosen sex for a long time.

Because cross dressers with a fetish hijacked the transsexual narrative for themselves. They are a large group and are pushing the agenda.

For a while I think it was encouraged because it lent leverage in terms of acceptance of transsexuals, but now so many weirdos are considered trans, it's overtaken the small group of people who are transsexuals.

There is no definition of trans-gender that covers everybody any more. Transsexuals were regarded as 'Truscum' by a lot of trans people. Transsexuals maybe speaking up now, but the juggernaut is hurtling towards erasing both them and women.

I'm never sure how helpful these posts are, in that I've mostly seen people reinforcing an existing massive divide (MN is full of TERF scum vs Trans Activists are BadWrongMisogynistic and trans women are creepy perverts in dresses), but I'm told some people find them so.

I normally see the exact same people, on both sides, repeating the exact same messages with zero variation.

Yes Datun I understand that but why now? 'Caitlyn' exacerbated it, IMHO, but I think it was already a thing before that.

And Datun I always think your posts are excellent, so clear and insightful.

NotReallyMeToday I know we may seem to see the same names posting but it is not really the same people always and we do not know,but can guess it is not the same names reading.

About two years ago I read a thread on here where a poster said they would not get a smear test if the HCP was male. It really made me think how strongely some women feel.

And although I do not feel this way I defend women's rights to want to be away from males and to feel this way.

The thing about the thread that most struck me (wish I could find it now!) Was where it said pretending men were women is hard work. And why should we have to do it.

So although it is the same arguments again and again, actually it is different people beginning to think.

My transsexual friend is attracted to males, I think of her now as she. No effort on my part. No feeling of threat. But a male who clearly looks male and says they knew they were a lesbian when they saw a sexy woman dancing, or whatever... Hard work pretending they are a woman and yes, even if they had zero interest in me, a fifty something woman, I would feel uncomfortable with them in the changing room.

Just as other woman would not want my mild mannered husband in the loo with them. Even if nither male is actually a threat!

I used to be very supportive of anyone trans, because I had not seen the darker AGP side to it.

Now I have seen it, and I can't un-see it!

But I have also got to know a very nice transsexual women and trans people, on line, and contrary to popular opinion even though I am gender critical I, like loads of others, do care about trans people's rights.

So these threads do help us to share thoughts anonymously and safely.

Italiangreyhound

When Helen Highwater posted on here, I was utterly shocked to find out she was a transwoman. I thought I was talking to another woman. It was about a feminist issue and she utterly got it. As if she lived it each and every day. Plus there was no self-serving element, no narcissism.

Unfortunately, she and her partner Miranda Yardley are about the only two I can think of where I haven't felt at least a degree of disconnect.

Nonetheless, if this ideology had been confined to people like them, and perhaps your friend, feminists/women would not be as outraged.

I'm not really sure why this has come about now. Because the blurring of gender roles hasn't happened in the truest sense. Cross dressing isn't really blurring gender roles, it's reinforcing them.

I'm not really informed about academic feminism, but I read somewhere that as soon as women start to make a difference, there tends to be a backlash. I'm not sure how it works particularly but that might be the case here?

I think the ideology been tacked on to the progressive acceptance of the LGB community. As people become more open-minded it allowed transgenderism to flourish.

Men who cross dressed when their wife went out and maybe attended a club once in a blue moon now feel far more emboldened by claiming transgenderism.

Youngsters want a movement that subverts the previous generation's morality.

Unfortunately there is a big difference between cross dressing fetishism and transsexualism and that divide has polarised opinion, but the cracks are beginning to show in the former.

When I started to to drill down into this online, I was stunned by the misogyny. In fact that's what's brought on my late onset feminism...

datun

It would be very easy to go 'stealth' on here and not talk about trans issues. Personally, I do talk about trans issues and make it clear on trans threads that I am trans.

It would be easy just to start a new name, not discuss trans at all and to post on feminism issues.

I know ego. Do you ever do that, as a matter of interest? Stealth post on the feminism boards? It would be an interesting experiment.

ego. I know you've been around for awhile, and I realise it must be tricky for you sometimes.

I admire your fortitude!