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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with rape victim RE:drunken women judge comments

163 replies

FullTimeYummy · 28/03/2017 09:52

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39367339

This is the lady who eas the victim in the recent case where the judge made the controversial comments about drunken women.

I have to say i agree with the victims take on the comments: they are a warning to take care, nothing else

OP posts:
Dearlittleflo · 29/03/2017 13:50

I think a lot of the commentary on this story blurs the line between risk and blame.

The risk of being raped is higher if you go out and get pissed etc.
The blame falls squarely on the rapist in any event.

Focusing too much on risk rather than blame makes it seem as if it's women's responsibility to avoid being raped, rather than men's not to rape. OTOH, given that some men commit rape, it's prudent to be aware of risks. I don't see any inconsistency here.

WeirdAndPissedOff · 29/03/2017 14:20

^ What Dear Little said.
AFAIK there hasn't been a single poster ob this thread who has even implied that rape isn't solely the rapist's fault.
However, as with any crime, people are warned to minimise the risks.
We could aim campaigns at the rapists, but apart from a few of the more "blurry" scenarios, will they listen?

We happily tell people to not meet strangers in private when OLD, to lock their doors etc. We tell children not to go with people they don't know. We warn potential victims how to minimise the risks of fraud, hacking, theft, violence and so on.
In none of those instances is this "advice" considered victim-blaming. And we don't warn the perpetrators not to do it, because they'll likely do it regardless.
Why should rape be any different?

If someone I was close to was planning to get blind drunk, then walk alone down a dark alley, I would warn them of the risks. I shouldn't have to, and they shouldn't have to consider it. And I'd something were to happen, that doesn't make it n any way their fault. But you can't deny those risks are increased in certain situations.

That being said, I do know that rape is different, because people do blame the victims. I don't know what the solution is, and we do need to change attitudes to rape, however I don't feel that pretending there aren't situations where you may be more vulnerable is the way to go.

AHalfFormedThing · 29/03/2017 14:35

I wish there was more focus on men reducing their alcohol intake to be honest (significant number of sexual assault perpetrators consume alcohol prior to it happening).
When the man who sexually assaulted me was confronted by our mutual friend, he admitted that the thought would have never crossed his mind had he been sober.

RhodaBull · 29/03/2017 15:09

Exactly , WeirdAndPissedOff. People are always being warned to be on their guard against any sort of crime - from violence to cybercrime. And, of course, who hasn't drummed Stranger Danger into their dcs.

With rape, there is the "problem" that most rapes are not by strangers in dark alleys, but by acquaintances usually under the influence of alcohol. Still, I think judgement is clouded when drunk. "Beer goggles" apply to both sexes. I know some people are arguing that women shouldn't have to drink less than men in order to protect themselves, but frankly as a 7 and a half stone weedy specimen common sense dictates that a merry me would stand a better chance of escaping a dodgy situation than a rat-arsed me.

StillScaredYearsLater · 29/03/2017 15:17

I think there is a difference between giving general safety advice and specifically giving rape prevention safety advice targeted at women. The former I have no problem with. It's the latter that makes me Angry.

I was raped 14 years ago whilst walking home from a night out. I was very drunk and thought it would be a good idea to walk home alone at 3 in the morning after being separated from friends.

He attacked me from behind and proceeded to choke me and he threatened to kill me if I didn't do exactly what he said. I did try to run away at one point but he quickly caught me again. Maybe I would have been able to run faster if I wasn't drunk...I don't know...but he caught me, hit me and told me if I tried that again he would kill me and I believed him so I just kind of laid still whilst he raped me over and over.

I never reported it. I never told anyone because I knew and still know the kind of responses I will get/would have got.

My mum always told me to never drink too much, never walk home alone in case something happened (my brother wasn't given any such advice. He was just allowed to do what he wanted Hmm) but I ignored her that night and just like she said, something did happen. I was too terrified to tell my mum what happened because I knew she'd blame me.

Going back to my first point about giving general safety advice vs giving specific rape prevention advice aimed at women I think this is where it gets tricky. If I hadn't been raped that night and something else had happened instead...if I was mugged or beaten up then I would have had no problem reporting it. I might have felt like an idiot for getting myself into that position still but I would still have reported it. But because it was rape I blamed myself more somehow; I felt so ashamed.

I know that what happened was partly my fault and that I'm partly to blame but I still don't want my daughter to feel that if something happens then she can't talk to me about it. I have no clue what the solution is tbh Sad

kali110 · 29/03/2017 17:26

StillScaredYearsLater so sorry, that is horrific Flowers

KindDogsTail · 29/03/2017 17:40

What about the rapes that are perpetrated by men on other men, children old people where the victim is not drunk.

What you say is absolutely valid, but an enormous proportion of rapes are alcohol related.

jamie2 · 29/03/2017 17:52

This thread makes me feel ill. A friend was raped at night by a stranger. She was a witness in court. At first he denied he was even in the vicinity but then when confronted by dna evidence said it was consensual. She had been drinking. He was acquitted. She now has mental health problems and seriously regrets that she ever reported it. Her only consolation is that the police believed her and told her privately that he was well known to them for sexually related offences and she received maximum payout from the criminal injuries board.

Willyoujustbequiet · 29/03/2017 17:56

Kind dogs

But a far bigger proportion of rapes are where the rapist is known to the victim...friends, family etc... so what are women meant to do.....stay alone?

Elisheva · 29/03/2017 18:37

I think one of the problems here is that the 'advice' was given after the crime had occurred. So it comes across as 'if you hadn't been drunk then you would not have been raped'. Its different to advising someone to how to avoid a hypothetical situation.

bigmouthstrikesagain · 29/03/2017 19:09

stillscared I am so sorry Flowers and Angry on your behalf.

It is experiences like yours that demonstrate the very specific issues there are with sexual assault. Of course people should act responsibly and take care of themselves. But ultimately I have a huge problem with the attitude that if a woman drinks she is not only responsible for her behaviour but also for a rapists actions. That her choices become mitigating circumstances in the decision to prosecute or that she can feel so unsupported and shamed by social attitudes that it never gets reported.

I am angry that a woman getting drunk is seen as more problematic than the fact that men sometimes rape women when they are drunk. Heavy drinking and walking him alone is risky unwise behaviour. Of course it is but the problem is caused by men raping women. It should be possible to walk home and not get raped, to drink a bit too much with your husband and not get raped. Where is the earnest advice to rapey men and the head shaking about drunk men. I hate the double standard and I will not accept the responsibility.

KindDogsTail · 29/03/2017 19:59

Willy
I agree the greatest number are caused by known people, where alcohol has nothing to do with it.

I do think that alcohol does cause a lot of problems though, including causing people (men) to behave violently (including raping), and people in general to say unpleasant things, to lack judgement, to have accidents, to cause accidents, to be off their guard.

I think it might be a good idea if the media did not push its use quite so heavily. On Holby City for example, all those role model young doctors are often shown rushing to have too much to drink on the first chance they get.
A&E wards are clogged every weekend from alcohol related injuries.

About 30% of rapes are alcohol related though which I never realised until recently.

On the other hand, there have been so many people who have come on threads about this subject to say they were raped while drunk and therefore blamed themselves and never told anyone - just so terrible to contemplate - that I no longer know if I would dare warn about "not getting drunk", or "being careful", in case that happened. When rape survivors think they are to blame just because they were drunk, it is so sad. Of course it was not their fault, and the thought of compounding that suffering is unacceptable.

KindDogsTail · 29/03/2017 20:02

StillscaredYearsLAter
I am sorry I had not looked at your post before.

What happened to you was not your fault, no matter how drunk you were. I am so sorry that happened to you, and that you never told anyone.Flowers

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