AIBU to agree with rape victim RE:drunken women judge comments

[FullTimeYummy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39367339

This is the lady who eas the victim in the recent case where the judge made the controversial comments about drunken women.

I have to say i agree with the victims take on the comments: they are a warning to take care, nothing else

full

My posts were intended as a counter to the burglary analogies that fill these types of threads

i am sorry you found them flippant

No woman is ever in any way to blame for being raped. Ever.

By advising them under the guise of prevention/safety it implies that they are in some way responsible for a rapists actions.

A woman cannot and should not be judged on her actions in respect of her rape. She's not the one committing the crime. Anything that dilutes this fact does society no favours.

funny

I certainly warn all my children not to get too drunk

This is a serious, non-toady question to all of those who have posted on here calling this victim blaming.

Would you ever, under any circumstances, warn anyone that they might be more vulnerable to crime?

If the answer to that is yes, would you warn someone if rape or sexual assault was one of the possible crimes they may have an increased risk of falling victim to?

If not, why is that person less deserving of a warning?

toady? goady.

We need to be sending a much, much clearer message that Rape is never acceptable. The victim shaming has to stop. If a young man had been raped I can't see a judge or the papers saying - well- he only had himself to blame for being drunk and wearing those tight jeans and skimpy T shirt.

It smacks of women being culpable for inflaming mens passion and the idea that men cannot control themselves and should not have to.

However, I do counsel my kids when out to never to leave anyone behind - call me at any hour for help etc. We don't live in a perfect society but I don't think the judge should have voiced that opinion. I can only think it will put even more women off taking their rapist to court.

Agree Collaborate

If a young man had been raped I can't see a judge or the papers saying - well- he only had himself to blame

The judge never said this. It's a non sequitur and a common suggestion that a warning of leaving yourself vulnerable to a crime in some way excuses it. It doesn't. But you ARE still vulnerable to it.

You'd think a judge at the end of her career, could have said something just a little bit more helpful about the issues around rape in our society other than telling women not to get drunk. She must have known how the media would treat her comments and I can't forgive her for that. She knew she would get huge publicity because she was saying basically it's the drunken women's fault and her responsibility not to drink. She just fed into the usual misogynistic rubbish so widespread in our society. Of course I warned by dd about keeping safe but I expect a judge to have a bit more to say to society about rape than she did.

It's all playing with words and semantics. By saying to women 'You can take steps to make yourself less vulnerable', we are implying that if they didn't take those steps they could have prevented the rape, ergo it is partly their fault. If you had drunk less, if you had worn less provocative clothing, if you hadn't walked in that area... you wouldn't have been raped. It's your fault.

What is funny not funny is that we can look back at our lives and say "I shouldn't have done that!" - I took risks in my youth - took substances I should not have, drank too much, took men home for just one night, took the MAP. didn't always floss my teeth.

Now here I am aged 42 with all my life experience, still alive and not having been raped - which is not because I was 'lucky' it is because I was not raped.

I can be a massive hypocrite and say to my children - "do as I say not as I did - don't drink, don't take drugs - keep yourself safe" - I want to with all my heart keep them safe and away from harm - the thought of any of them being hurt in any way breaks my heart. I cannot keep them safe from harm. I cannot mitigate every risk. The thought that I would tell my girl children that they have to be the guardians of moral rectitude for themselves and the men around them is insulting to men as well as women.

I can teach my children to be strong, independent, hopefully wise and a caring friend, my friends looked out for each other, didn't let people go off pissed, travelled together, took care of each other and held back hair when we were puking.

I will not teach my girls that they are responsible for men's behaviour - rapists aren't a separate species they are human beings, just as are people who commit, murder and burgle - you can as a society reduce crime - what I won't accept is being made responsible for someone else committing a crime against me.

I will not teach my girls that they are responsible for men's behaviour

Neither will I. I will, howeve, teach her how to make herself less vulnerable to crime.

Just like I did with her brothers.

Would you tell someone they were less likely to get raped? - I was sometimes called an ugly lesbo, a fraggle, a bloody student, and had pebbles thrown at me and sometimes I was sexually harrassed and sometimes I was ignored for a more attractive woman - so sometimes I was considered a target for my gender, sometimes my looks (or lack), sometimes for my perceived sexual orientation, ginger hair, occupation, music taste, even for my accent as once too posh, and once too northern and once too southern!!

My point is that if I spent all my time trying to avoid unwanted attention and attack for just being on this planet - how the fuck would I get anything else done! You cannot avoid being targeted if there is something about you that can be used against you, being a woman is enough. I cannot change and I don't want to change that and I am damned if anyone is going to limit my choices movements and my right to drink a bit too much sometimes because - other people!

These days I am rapidly gaining the super power of invisibility that middle aged women have - so yay for that - parp!

*I will, howeve, teach her how to make herself less vulnerable to crime.

Just like I did with her brothers.*
And if she fails to follow your advice? Will you then say 'I told you so'? or 'If you'd done what I told you you wouldn't have been attacked'?

By saying to women 'You can take steps to make yourself less vulnerable', we are implying that if they didn't take those steps they could have prevented the rape, ergo it is partly their fault.

Instal a smoke alarm. Good advice or saying that it's your fault if your children die in a fire?

Studies have shown that alcohol plays a factor in about half of all rapes. No one is saying that only drunk women get raped, no one is saying that women are responsible for being raped, no one is saying women can't drink, but I imagine as a judge that eventually after hearing harrowing testimony after testimony by women who have been raped while drunk, you eventually get to the point where you want to ask why do you keep putting yourselves in these vulnerable situations? And you want to tell women not to put yourselves in these situations. I can understand why she spoke as she did, but she should have addressed the fact that the perpetrators are often drunk and should have asked men why they keep putting themselves in these situations too.

This is a really interesting paper that summarises a lot of research into sexual assault and alcohol.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm

Fire alarm is a good idea. Rape alarm is too.

• isn't it sad that women are advised to shout fire rather than help - if they are in trouble as people are more likely to come running ... I was told that years ago - I have no idea if it is true - the fact it feels true is telling though.

And if she fails to follow your advice? Will you then say 'I told you so'? or 'If you'd done what I told you you wouldn't have been attacked'?

Don't be so fucking stupid. Of course I wouldn't.

Yes night wanderer and judges are not sitting listening to the hours of boring reports from the majority of drunk women and men who stumble home and fall asleep at the kitchen table while making a cup of tea.

They are only hearing the reports of rapes and the fact that alcohol is a factor is not surprising but still doesn't mean that it is a woman's fault. if women were banned from drinking would rape cease to be an issue?

She must have known how the media would treat her comments and I can't forgive her for that. She knew she would get huge publicity because she was saying basically it's the drunken women's fault and her responsibility not to drink.
I think most of the blame should go to the media. She said far more than has been reported in most articles on this - though she could have predicted which bit they'd focus on, I suppose.

Agreed completely to anything Bigmouth said above especially the below part:
**
The thought that I would tell my girl children that they have to be the guardians of moral rectitude for themselves and the men around them is insulting to men as well as women

If a person is exposed to a vulnerable situation and was abused by an other person then the other person is in act of a crime, its as clear as day light, there should never be a question about it, thats what we aim for in a better society. After a closed door, whatever else we teach our children based on our view, real life personal experience, culture etc. shouldnt void the fact that: abusing another person's vulnerability is an act of a crime(or at minimum inhumanity and unkindness), there should never be question about it.

Oh cheers greenleave - nice not to be invisible

The judge and the victim are quite right.

I would tell my ds as well as my dd that being drunk puts a person in a vulnerable position.

In an ideal world we could all stagger around drunk at 3 in the morning and be confident that no harm would come to us. But it's not an ideal world. There are bad people around: opportunists or other drunks and so on.

Agree Rhoda

That young woman chose not to go home with her friends, she chose to remain in town, where she accepted the overtures of a couple of strangers who took her to a canal-side & assaulted her.

Would she have made those poor choices if sober? - I very much doubt it & if she had, she would have been better able to read the situation as it evolved. Would the assailants have tried it on if she'd been sober? Maybe not.