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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with rape victim RE:drunken women judge comments

163 replies

FullTimeYummy · 28/03/2017 09:52

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39367339

This is the lady who eas the victim in the recent case where the judge made the controversial comments about drunken women.

I have to say i agree with the victims take on the comments: they are a warning to take care, nothing else

OP posts:
Dozer · 28/03/2017 23:21

What about the PP whose DP raped her? Will you tell your DD not to have boyfriends? Uncles? Work colleagues who are men?

kineticmagnetic · 28/03/2017 23:32

Exactly dozer, victim blaming basically means women should stay Ina locked room in a baggy, locked wetsuit at all times.

kineticmagnetic · 28/03/2017 23:32

In a, sorry

Dozer · 28/03/2017 23:40

not walk in quiet places in the dark (to and from friends, school or work)? in country lanes in bright daylight? On wimbledon common? Not walk to and from school alone (milly dowler)? Not get buses (marsha macdonald)?

Dozer · 28/03/2017 23:43

To be fair, not drinking alcohol might mean avoiding a rapist whose modus operandi is to attack drunk women (assuming he doesn't spike non alcoholic drinks with drugs). And reduce risks of various kinds of crime and accidents. But it does not equate to "staying safe" from rape.

wevegottobeathemdown · 28/03/2017 23:57

I think largely the concept of not victim blaming is to believe in a world that does not exist.
This is not a perfect world. There are rapists.

On that basis:

You either protect yourself or you don't.

Stating that there simply shouldn't 'be' rapists at all may be ideal but is nonsensical at best.

littlelost27 · 29/03/2017 00:05

I think that although phrased badly there is some point in what the judge said. I am in no way victim blaming, the rapist is 100% at fault for their actions and shouldn't have done it.

However, sadly, there are bad people in this world. And things such as going to the bathroom in pairs and not walking down a dark empty street alone can help prevent these bad people from doing the things they are trying to.

Compare it to other crimes such as theft, particularly at concerts or festivals. It is in no way the victims fault if a phone gets lifted from their pocket or bag, the thief is 100% at fault, however if a person can help prevent this by keeping hold of their phone in a sealed place this would go some way to help prevent it so would be all around better.

Of course it would be so much better if we could just teach men not to rape but sadly that is a huge and near impossible task and until that happens if a woman can do something to keep herself safer and lower the risk, why not at least try it and ere on the side of caution.

DJBaggySmalls · 29/03/2017 00:14

I don't think you're being unreasonable. I don't think the judge was and I don't think the victim is either. I don't accept its internalized misogyny and I haven't seen any argument that has made me change my mind on that.
Its not victim blaming to give safety advice or teach self defense.

I know men shouldn't rape. I know the focus for rape prevention should be on their behaviour. I think thats a separate issue.

Willyoujustbequiet · 29/03/2017 00:15

Yabvu

Rapists rape. Nothing a woman does or does not do will alter that.

MustBookADentistAppointment · 29/03/2017 00:21

Surely the message should just be 'men, stop raping women. It's not ok. Ever.'

Anything else is just giving weight to the idea that we can't expect men to control themselves, so we should do the next best thing and try to stop it happening to us... rather than stop it happening?

Lingotria · 29/03/2017 00:52

When you're drunk you lose your credibility in the legal system - that was the message the judge gave. The lady in question had gaps in her memory which she wouldn't have had if she wasn't drunk.

However if taken as a 'general message' I personally think it's a good for young women - by all means drink, go out, have a good time, but don't drink to the point where you become vulnerable. In the real world women have to protect themselves.

caroldecker · 29/03/2017 01:09

The judge did 100% blame the rapists - she was talking about being more vulnerable whilst drunk, not being more to blame.
The victim herself says she did not remember the event well and if the rapist had not filmed it there would have been no prosecution because she was unable to remember the details and would not have gone to the police.
It is often said on MN that you look after friends on a night out - why - because they are vulnerable to rape/abuse.

kali110 · 29/03/2017 01:48

Yanbu, i agree.
I don't think the judge is victim blaming.
Men rape.
Women are not to blame for this, however if you are completely off your face then you are more at risk it doesn't have to mean rape, but theft, assault etc.

EBearhug · 29/03/2017 02:28

It is sensible to advise people not to get excessively drunk - you're more likely to have an accident of some sort, you're putting your health at risk of alcohol poisoning, you're more likely to be involved in a violent incident - a fight, assault. Loads of reasons not to overdo it.

Where are all the warnings about not drinking too much in case you trip over the kerb into the path of an on-coming car, or not to drink too much because you're much more likely to to be involved in a fight, or not to drink too much because of the number of accidents and deaths on and in water which involve alcohol?

No, none of that. It's just don't drink too much, else it's your own fault for getting raped. Most rapes happen with someone known to the victim, but we don't go round telling women not to have relationships with men, which is more of a risk factor than being drunk (obviously they're not either/or factors.)

Where are the warnings to men advising them not to drink too much, so they can be sure that anyone they're with is capable of consenting, and if it wasn't clear consent, you'll be capable of not proceeding until it is clear consent?

Where's the messages to men that rape is not socially or legally acceptable and if they go ahead, they'll end up ruining their own lives? Oh no, that doesn't ever happen, they just get suspended sentences, if there's any conviction at all. So we carry on blaming the women whose fault it really isn't.

The judge is right that there are some bastards out there who will use alcohol to manipulate women and rape them. You should have an awareness of things like not leaving drinks unattended. But the other risks of alcohol and other situations in which women are raped are both far more likely, yet we still always focus on the women who get drunk, and none of the rest of it.

Cherrypi · 29/03/2017 02:39

The victim said she wouldn't have gone to the police as she wouldn't have been believed. She also said if she was raped again she wouldn't report it. It was a really shocking interview and she was very brave to give it.

Trifleorbust · 29/03/2017 04:27

Judges don't generally issue statements advising homeowners to lock their doors and windows, or people to put their wallets on chains, or not use their mobile phones in the street. All common sense advice, in some respects. None of it within the remit of a judge, who is employed to judge a criminal case, not to offer safety advice to potential victims. Why oh why is it always rape where people seem to feel free to overstep their remit and offer 'common sense' advice that always sounds so very much like 'responsibility sharing'?

ImsorryTommy · 29/03/2017 05:45

EBearhug - I live in an area where several pissed young people have drowned in the river. There has been loads of publicity around it and there was a national 'don't drink and drown' campaign before Christmas.

Headofthehive55 · 29/03/2017 05:50

I think it might stop people getting into situations where intentions are misread. Alcohol does make up much less easy to pick up on situations, where you've been a yes signal, - or have you? or read a situation where you might become vulnerable to an accident.

And for boys as well.

Trifleorbust · 29/03/2017 06:01

Headofthehive55:

Alcohol is definitely a factor in causing people to be more vulnerable. But it is all too easy to cross from that to saying, "You were raped because you were drunk." That is a misunderstanding of basic causation, missing out the (quite pivotal) moment when someone decides to rape, either intentionally setting out to violate someone, or doing so because they misunderstand their legal or moral responsibilities.

But I am sure you know that.

Oswin · 29/03/2017 06:09

I'm not sure what your saying headofhives, what kind of signals?

Dozer · 29/03/2017 06:38

To the PP who said women should go to the bathroom in pairs and not walk down dark streets, what else should we do? Not have friendships or relationships with men? Not work?

I live in a small town and walk down quiet dark streets to get to work. Should I have stayed in poorer housing in London because the streets were busier?

OP there are NOT "plenty of initiatives" aimed at men, there are only a few.

Dozer · 29/03/2017 06:39

Wtf headofthehive: "signals"?

Is it 1973?

Collaborate · 29/03/2017 07:01

If your son or daughter is going out in town and planning to get drunk, and you don't warn them to take care, and point out that when they're drunk they are statistically more likely to be the victim of crime, and you make the decision not to warn them because you think that doing so is victim blaming, you're either thick as pig shit or a cunt.

This really boils my piss.

pleaseee · 29/03/2017 07:04

Rapists rape. Nothing a woman does or does not do will alter that.

Not true. If I wasn't drunk it wouldn't have happened to me. I could have changed that.

NightWanderer · 29/03/2017 07:10

There are different situations that lead to rape. A woman or child being raped by a family member is a very different situation to a woman getting raped while drunk at a party. Both awful but it's not sensible to lump the 2 together when discussing rape prevention.

Did anyone listen to the TED talk by the man who raped the woman? He was drunk, she was drunk, he raped her. If neither of them were drunk then the rape wouldn't have happened. Very few men wake up and decide they are going to rape someone today. A lot of rapes happen because a man happens to find a situation where rape is very easy, and these situations often involve alcohol. A boy at school tried to rape me at a party. I was lucky to get away, but I really doubt he has ever tried to rape someone before or again, it was just the crazy situation we got ourselves into and we were both very drunk.

Of course stranger rapes occur with habitual rapists, and of course rapes occur in the home with habitual abusers, but these other rapes, rapes of opportunity, are preventable by both men and women taking better care of themselves and not getting into these alcohol-fueled crazy situations.

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