to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

Of course you will ignore me! Avoidance is the name of the game, right?

I disagree that these are methods which will help all kids in that situation achieve, in fact from my own background I can see how over and over again these methods have entirely failed to help lots and lots of kids.

I also do not believe that it is reasonable to cause trauma to some children in order to supposedly heal trauma in others. What sort of circle of shit is that??

Thanks for posting everyone, you've given me lots to think about. There is so much more to any issue than you ever see.

Our school is great in so many ways. They've had lots of input from the NAS because there are kids with autism in school and these sessions have really helped everyone understand why their classmates behave differently and have slightly different rules in place. For example one kid gets to run out to the playground earlier because the bell is too loud for her indoors. No-one else gets to do this, but everyone understands why and it's fine.

They have had a few sessions with a local Young Carers Project because there is a family in school who care for their mum and they are often in school late, leave early or don't get homework finished, but again everyone understands why the rules on rewards for attendance don't apply the same way to this family.

They've had a MacMillan nurse came to school to talk about how having cancer, or a parent having cancer can affect you, someone from the LGBT Foundation talked about kids growing up with gay parents, talks about Down Syndrome, cerebal palsy, wherever there is an issue that affects a kid in school they are usually really proactive in helping other kids understand.

But there has never been a talk, and I don't know how you would even begin to have such a talk, about kids who behave outside the norm because their home lives are difficult, because their parents just can't parent them. I wish there was a way the school could talk about it because I think it would really help. It's hard to show empathy when you don't understand.

You expect nothing from these kids because you think nothing of them. They know that and they hate you for it.

And SpartacusX, this made me feel really sad for kids who feel like this. What's the answer? Is there an answer?

Some of them, their parents can parent them. Adults may have failed them in the past, but some will be in stable, loving homes, now.

Love is not enough.

What talk could you imagine? "Ben finds it hard to trust adults, because his birth dad raped his birth mum in front of him." "Tina sometimes gets angry, because she's hurting that she was ignored as a baby, and burned with a cigarette when she cries."

One answer might be that instead of forcing them to be in a class they obviously dont want to be in, or sitting them down with an ipad to idly flick through youtube (ffs - that is pretty cut and dried neglect right there), they could be given a space in which they can sit and do something they actually enjoy doing. Like reading or painting or computing or gym or whatever. Perhaps giving these kids some place else they can build their skills and confidence, while the other kids can get on with their class without feeling threatened or being abused.

Spartacus you assume there is space and funding for that. Even if some small amount of funding can be found, many schools may do not have any physical space.

While by the sounds of it these boys need specialist provision, spaces are not easy to come by. My ds is in one such provision and the wait list is very long for spaces. I know not everywhere even has these services.

This situation in class sounds pretty bad and it does sound as if certain behaviours are being ingnored. However, we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes and maybe they are being addressed, just in different ways.
Spartacus, I agree with you that children who come from a deprived and/or chaotic home life need high expectations. As teachers we cannot change their history but need to support them to achieve their potential with that. I expect children with chaotic lives to complete homework etc. If they are young carers or don't have a place to work etc I try and work with them to get round the problem as ultimately this is what they will need to do to succeed.
However, children with a history of trauma are different. This year I am teaching two children with attachment disorder and am parenting one at home. I am also a therapeutic parent and now a therapeutic teacher. These children's brains do NOT work the same way. Their trauma has caused brain damage. Therapeutic parenting does NOT just make allowances for them, it actively HEALS them. And it absolutely works in school too. It is not easy and not the same as the usual rules and sanctions but it works. My two ad children have no sticker charts or behaviour charts. They rarely miss break time unless they are unsafe. However, rudeness to me is not tolerated and violence is not accepted. Homework is not always a priority but they complete the work at some point.

I hope that the situation with these two boys improves, OP, For your dc's sake and for theirs. Sadly, my ds is one of 'those' children too, but I know his school is dealing with his behaviour, and with this, my therapeutic parenting and therapy, I have some hope that he will be able to function in society by the time he leaves school.
Rainyday, it looks like we're probably in a similar situation. Have probably even chatted on facebook :)

We probably have!

And parenting therapeutically is not softy parenting. I am MUCH more strict and rigid with rules with my trauma child than my other children who could cope with standard parenting...

Spartacus some of these things happen within reason and finances permitting. Things like lego therapy,play therapy,just time and a place to talk. Care for the pets. Do a painting/build something related to the coursework instead of being in class. Separate working stations if needed. Time out to run and burn energy and run and scream once they complete some work. Safe places. 1 to 1. Food,experiences,money when no one bothers to send any. Outfits on dress up days when they are the only ones in uniforms. Interventions and mentors and a billion other things. But if the parents insist their kid belongs and should stay in that school,with all the expectations and pressures and tests, to r even worse they don't give a shit as long as the kid is out of their hair,there's not a lot more that the school can do,without being seen as failing that child educationally and being pulled up on it.

Yes, many teachers, including heads, do pander to dreadful behaviour and I can't do it. That's why I'm off. I asked a HT for advice on managing a class of bright but unruly year 11s and was told 'they respond well to a Mars Bar'

In the same school, a boy hurled a pen at me shouting 'you fucking bitch!' His friend announced that the rest of the class would deny it happened - they obviously knew what would happen next because instead of taking my word for it, the deputy head asked everyone in the class for a written statement... and they all lied.

I entirely get that there are children with behavioural difficulties, or who are victims of abuse, or whose parents don't try to correct their behaviour. But pandering to it puts the rest of the class at a disadvantage and means that other teachers haven't got a hope of dealing with it effectively.

OP I'm afraid it gets worse in secondary

OP, I feel for your kids. There were "nightmare" kids like that in my primary school. And I envied them. These kids acted out because they had "chaotic" homes like divorced parents or blended families. I had a "naice" middle class family. And I was a quiet kid. But behind closed doors my "naice" dad was often emotionally and verbally abusing me and my sister and mother. Sometimes the abuse would turn physical. I would have much prefered a broken home and get pandered to with special allowances made like those kids.

I know divorce is traumatic for children and I hope I don't come across like I am belittling what they went through but my life was in danger and I didn't dare tell anyone. I wouldn't have minded but those "damaged" kids bullied me and even as an dult in my 30s i have problems trusting people and severe anxiety in social situations. I have self harmed from a young age and have CPTSD. My bullying was as traumatic as any of the traumas suffered by kids with "attachment" issues. At least those "damaged" kids got a lot of help when they were young and probably have recovered now., I was denied help by my parents because they were ashamed of our "naice" family being seen to have problems.

I know my above comment wasn't very nice and I probably made a lot of assumptions. But I am not sorry I wrote it. What happens id the OP's kid gets traumatised by bullying? I don't see why people see divorce or chaotic homes as being worse than the effects of being bullied. Bullying has one pof the highest suicide rates of any childhood trauma. Psychiatrists say that bullying has many of the same affects as incest/sexual abuse eg sense of shame, self-hatred, problem with boundaries

So if a school doesnt have space and funding to support these kids, the kids just have to put up with being neglected while yet other kids put up with the fallout of that neglect?

No child should be forced to be in an environment where they feel threatened, harassed, abused or neglected. 'Not having the resources' is adults making excuses. If a school cant cope and cant offer a space to a child where they and others are kept safe and able to access an education suitable to each and every one, then that school shouldnt be offering a space to that child!

It should be up to local authorities to ensure there are suitable facilities for every child to thrive. If they arent doing that, they should be forced to! Schools, parents, teachers - its up to you to force this issue into the light and get it dealt with! Which is exactly what the OP is trying to do - get someone 'in responsibility' to pay some attention and start coming up with potential solutions!

It is mad that we can sit around saying, oh but the school cant, oh but the parents cant, oh but the teachers cant, oh but the local authority cant... when what all that sums up to is a whole bunch of adults with resources not using them in effective ways, and expecting instead a bunch of kids to deal with all the negative impact while the adults stand around looking helpless and passing the buck.

When adults refuse to deal with this, it falls on the kids to do so. But they are just kids. So some become angry and frustrated and violent and they turn it on the people around them - mostly other kids. Cycle of trauma continues. Shrug. Someone else's fault, someone else's problem??

The other thing I"m never sure how to judge is what to say to my own kid when he says to me "why do I have to do all this homework and xyz doesn't?" "Well, life's not fair, suck it up" is not enough of an explanation I don't think, not for such a huge and obvious difference in treatment. I'm never sure if it's ok to say "well his/her parents are not able to help him with homework and it would be a shame if he always lost out because of his parents". I don't know if it's right to suggest anything negative to my child about someone else's family.

I don't really have suggestions for the rest of your post but the answer to "why do I have to do all this homework and xyz doesn't?" might simply be "Because you can. He can't". You could tell your DS quite honestly that you don't know why the other two can't do it. You don't have to talk about their homelife but there are all kinds of different possible reasons, from not having a place to do homework to having a lot of disruption at home to being miserable and distracted to having other learning disabilities (it's not unknown for kids to face multiple challenges, and you can bet that a kid with a horrible homelife and learning difficulties wont have parents who go to all the meetings and fight his corner to get the support and resources he needs - and neither will anyone else). The same goes for the swearing at the teacher - you can tell your DS that those two kids can't keep it in but he can and so can the rest of the class. You could explain that everyone can think of sweary words but most of us can stop ourselves from saying them, imagine what it must be like to be unable to stop yourself. You don't know the reason, but he might be unhappy or distracted or angry about things that have nothing to do with school. And if your DS has a go at doing the same then you can come down on him like a ton of bricks because (as you can tell him!) you know he can behave well. You could also remind him how much the teacher must be pleased to have 28 well behaved kids in her class.

I've used a similar approach with my own DS who has a lot of challenging behaviour and was allowed to get away with a lot, but as he improved and expectations were raised he once or twice complained about being punished for things he hadn't been punished for before. And my explanation was because they knew that he could do better.

And you are right, it would be very inappropriate to have a presentation in school about their home lives!

SoFedUp - Im with you. How many people here are making the assumption that the other 23 kids are all from naice homes??

Chances are some of the kids dealing with the trauma of being exposed to the disruptive/abusive kids behaviour are also suffering from traumas of their own.

All this stuff does is pander to the kids who scream and shout the loudest. And honestly, in my experience, the most traumatised child is very often not the loudest, quite the opposite actually.

That is a sad situation, sofedup. Some children of trauma do become introverted and others act out. I'm sorry you were not able to get the help you needed as a child. Unfortunately the child cannot choose how they react to their trauma and as a pp said, there are probably other children in that class who are suffering too.
I don't know what is happening at that school, maybe those boys are being terribly pandered to and it is doing nobody any good, but maybe there is an awful lot going on that we don't know.
I know my son's anxiety can look like aggression. I feel his little body tense as soon as we talk about school, though he tells me it's fine. I know he is in pure primal fight or flight as soon as he leaves my side. I truly hope that he will recover from his trauma, with all the help he gets, but I'm not sure it ever will be completely gone and like you, most of these children continue to struggle with the after effects into adult life.

SoFedUp I'm sorry for what you've been through,and I'm even more sorry that you felt you had no one to tell so they would help. Dealing with troubled kids in a different way is one thing,allowing them to bully other children is another,and unacceptable in my eyes. Bullying should always be dealt with no matter whom it comes from.
However here are some examples of chaotic lifestyles ..
-kid's sibling was murdered,both parents are struggling and have mental health as a result. Plus ongoing trial and dealing with the actual situation.
-"mummy said I'm a superstar for looking after sibling all week"
-"mummy hides in her bedroom all day and I don't see her anymore. I miss my mummy"
-"mum has three boyfriends now"
-"can you feed x today? I have nothing to give them for dinner"
-"I'm tired today because dad threw us out if the house and we had to walk to grandma's in the middle of the night"
-"I'm stupid
Oh x,no you're not. We'll go over it again at lunchtime/in the morning .
It's pointless. I'm just stupid! Mummy said so!"
-"mum and dad were tired and they went to bed so i got to stay on my tablet until 1 o'clock last night!"

Totally agree that this approach simply means the kids who act out the most get the most attention.
It doesn't help them. If they don't learn another way they'll soon end up in the hands of an institution which doesn't use the inclusion agenda as an excuse fir nit tackling behaviour. The criminal justice system. Have seen it many times and never failed to feel anger at how kudscwho end up there have been let down by those who should have guided them.

But Karlos, it's not about not tackling it, it's about tackling it differently.
And I agree, bullying is unacceptable and should never be ignored.

RebelRogue Those are heartbreaking situations. But I doubt those kids trauma is any worse than mine was. I had the "I'm stupid" thing too and was constantly screamed at that I was stupid. I had actual learning issues as well. Trauma is trauma is trauma.

Slkk As a teenager and adult I did become aggressive., I ende dup in psych units for aggression and actual hitting people as well as self harm. I was diagnosed with BPD as an adult which causes screaming aggressive meltdowns. My therapist told me these are actually "masked" anxiety/panic attacks and it i sfight or flight, and that I am not agressive by temperament. But I get told I'm a drama queen, a faker, a bully, a narcissist etc Soi feel for what your son goes through. I also used to lash out by hitting an dpunching the bullies as a child. But I would cry if an animal was hurt and was very very sensitive and shy of people. I didn't like the limelight especially or want attention for it's own sake- the times i sought it were when I was crying out for help.

I think you need to think about how you talk to your son about them.

If he is able to understand basic ideas of people struggling to (walk, manage noise, ear certain foods, cope with homework) he will understand the world much better.

Perhaps telling him - yes, they are being rewarded but they find it really, really difficult so any tiny thing means they have tried hard.

Also, focus on why doing homework is good for HIM - how it helps him learn, teaches him to work on his own.

Perhaps then he will be more able to empathise.

They won't be there forever - classes change, people leave - but try to view it as positively as you can and teach him at it IS fair because they have struggled far more so they get more praise for doing much less.

eat certain foods.

If they are 'earing foods they really are in trouble

KarlosKKrinkelBiem Sadly, that is true. Or they end up in Mental health units like I did. My parents weren't drug addicts, and I wasn't raped or neglected. RebelRogueYet I don't doubt that my additional needs are just as serious as those with attachment disorder, RAD, or sociopathy. In fact, as a kid I manifested many symptoms of RAD/attachment disorder but wasn't diagnosed at the time. But my therapist when I described what I was like as a kid said "classic attachment disorder which led to borderline symptoms as a young adult." She even asked me if I had ever been abandoned or sent to boarding achool (in my 3rd session with her before I told her about the abuse) because my issues pointed to being abandoned by a parent. But I never was. Just a bit of DV, EA and verbal abuse