to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

The fact that you've seen it first hand is worrying. I would be checking the school's behaviour policy and going in to speak with the head armed with it to discuss your concerns and find a way forward.

Is there another class your DC could be moved into? I realise that isn't exactly a solution to everyone else's problem but it does solve your immediate concerns about your DC.

If you didn't want to do this, or couldn't, and nothing changed then honestly, this is one of the few instances that I would be considering moving schools. If they cannot adhere to their own behaviour policy, or keep discipline high enough to enable them to teach; then it's not adequate.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you ring Ofsted about as I only have 1 DC who is in Y1 and I've not encountered any problems just yet, but I'm sure someone will be along in a minute who knows more about that than me!

Good luck OP.

I feel for you OP but you will never know what's going on behind the scene
Rather than focusing on these boys can you not speak to the HT regarding up-ing the reward system for good classroom behaviour ?
Stay positive

There are different behaviour standards for different kids, the same as there are different academic expectations for different kids. It seems unfair from an outside perspective but it isn't really - it's actually ensuring that children aren't set unreasonable expectations that they could never meet (thanks to their upbringing / health issues / whatever).

Plus not only is it not effective to pull badly-bagged children up on every infraction, it's also incredibly time-consuming and leads to other kids getting even LESS time and attention. And nobody is more frustrated about that than a class teacher.

How, pray, is the parent helper meant not to observe

ok, I meant "not observe and report". Gossip about what happens in a classroom is not allowed - whether face to face with others or on an internet forum which provides fodder for many national newspapers and TV chat/affairs programmes.

So .. the currently well-behaved kids are being taught they can profit from being really badly behaved? Is that your concern?

I also think the OP is getting quite a hard time here. There aren't any winners in situations like these. The teacher is being let down by an underfunded system that doesn't work, the disruptive child is being badly let down at home and at school and the rest of the class is being let down too and I can't see why everyone is pretending it's all fine and good and just life.

It's a difficult situation - as other posters have said, sometimes (but not always) school is literally the only constant feature in such childrens' lives. So when the alternative is to have them at home all day, where home is with addicts or abusive parents, the choice is obvious. Not nice at all for your child, but...
Them moving schools just creates the same problem elsewhere in most cases.

Also there is possibly a financial implication with exclusions and managed moves. Not sure if it's the same with academies, but there used to be a financial penalty (in the several thousands) for exclusions, in addition to a loss of per pupil funding. As you can imagine in an environment where funding is being slashed and teachers are already having to buy resources to fill the gap, schools are eager to avoid any further cuts.
Additionally, as many primary schools are full, a 'spare' space would not remain spare for long - and mid year 'vacancies' do tend to be managed moves.

I totally sympathise but please don't assume you see the full picture. There will be no 'vague plan' - with such challenging behaviour there will be a minutely detailed plan in place with targets as straightforward as being in school for a full day, not swearing at the class teacher, and so on. It's not ideal, nobody should have to put up with that sort of shit, but we're not in an ideal world.

No teacher should be forced to teach a child who calls her a fat shit. The teacher is being very badly let down by the head.

I'm a primary school teacher and have taught challenging children. I've had furniture thrown at me, children have been physically assaulted, teachers attacked. All reported to senior management (deputy/head teachers). They have time out of class and temporarily excluded but are then sent back to class. Senior management are reluctant to permanently exclude as it triggers an Ofsted visit. My hands are tied and can only follow the school behaviour policy. I'm shocked at how parents don't complain, I feel if they did (although it really shouldn't even come to that) the school would have to be a lot stricter. I don't know why schools don't crack down on poor behaviour - it would make my job a lot easier. Having to stop lessons to deal with poor behaviour is exhausting. Unfortunately a small minority (luckily almost all children are well brought up and polite) ruin it for everyone because they have no boundaries set at home, come from alcoholic/drug backgrounds (heartbreaking) or their parents do not respect teachers and this attitude means they will not change.

Had similar when DD was in primary some years ago, only in her case it was one child who really did rule the roost. He was disruptive, violent and took most of the staffs time. I was never sure how he got away with the behaviour he did until the morning I went into reception to tell the head I was removing DD from the school and was witness to his Mother handing over a bunch of ten pound notes 'for the school fund'.
All became pretty clear then.

FWIW DD flourished in her new school and in our case moving her was the best decision I ever made, but fully appreciate it could also be a frying pan/fire situation.

My worry is if these poor kids have such a bad home life why are they not in care?

And what about weekends/holidays? the school isn't there for them then.

Unless these kids have any sort of disability, YANBU OP.

MY DC had major mental disabilities and was forever being excluded. not for physical disorder but verbal (tourettes).

yet there was a boy who was badly brought up (not the poor boys fault) everyone knew his parents yet was NEVER excluded and allowed to get away with everything. and did not have any disabilities.

I know because I was a teacher in DCs school and had to leave because of all the exclusions.

its awful how some kids are brought up but discipline starts at home and I hope their parents are not being 'pampered' to. they need to buck up and be responsible.

Kids are more than capable of noting different kids need different treatments. However swearing and gesticulating at people is extremely unacceptable and I can see why the kids are hugely confused if calling a teacher a fat shit is regarded with being able to get out of doing work in the class room and allowed to watch YouTube.

Wtf are kids doing watching you tube is anyone checking what they are watching is even suitable?

That doesn't Sunday like a behaviour plan sounds like doing fuck all to me.

Teachers kids and the ones being naughty are being let down massively.

School should be a safe environment for Everyone. Amd if things aren't managed now of those kids hit puberty they are going to be bigger and stronger than the adults dealing with them Nd then what?

Complaints should be made. The kids need support and someone needs of step up. And the staff and other pupils need to be kept safe

There is no support.

Cameeron cut funding. Children with serious behaviour issues often get no funding. The gvt. Want these kids to go to mainstream school and for us to just get suck it up.

Being a parent helper makes you realise how this set up (doesn't) work...

It's the same at most state schools. There is no solution.

The Tories prefer to focus their effort and money in terms of education on the top 10%, and fuck the rest. So this is what happens.

In my experience,ALL kids need boundaries. The school is doing them absolutely no favours whatsoever letting them get away with this awful behaviour.

I had an incredibly rough childhood, violent and neglectful parents, homeless at times, and worse and worse, stuff I wont go into here.

This attitude of different expectations on the behaviour and potential for kids from shitty homes is the biggest bag of condescending asshole bullshit. Do those of you saying this shit really believe that this is the best those kids can manage or have expected of them??

No wonder the kids act like dicks, they know the adults around them dont give enough of a shit about them to actually pull them up on their behaviour and tell them they can do better.

They arent animals, they arent scum. They need someone to care enough to tell them to sort their shit out. They are being set up for a life of "well what can you really expect from people like that".

I fucking guarantee that some of the other 23 kids in that class are also dealing with issues of abuse, violence, neglect. And they come to school and have to deal with this double whammy of bully kids in their class and patronising adults who are telling them every single time they ignore it - well that is all we can expect of people like you.

All of you saying this shit should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. That school is failing every single child within it by choosing to ignore this problem. Fair play OP for actually giving a crap, if only the other adults involved were similarly bothered.

looking for advice on what I can say to the teacher

Tricky. Maybe you could start by sympathising with the teacher and ask if you could help in any way?

Chances are that all the things you are suggesting that "they" should do have already been thought of and the staff either know they would be counterproductive or else there are other reasons. For example There is an extra teaching assistant in their class... would be a good reason for putting both boys in the same class. Either way they wont be able to discuss their reasons with you and random suggestions from someone who doesn't (and can't) know all the facts wont look (or be) helpful.

Dealing with kids who don't meet minimal behavour standards is probably very frustrating for the teacher too. You may be right that the school are just holding on for a year and then passing the problem on. It may be all they can do, they are obliged to take the children and it often takes much more than a year to get solutions and resources lined up, including specialist school places. Sometimes maintaining calm is as good as it gets for the sake of all the other children's education.

If it's having a bad effect on your DS you can complain to the school, to the teacher or head teacher. Avoid complaining about "pandering" and "double standards" etc. based on what you think as a volunteer. Instead you have far more clout if you complain as a parent and focus on what is happening to your own child and how it has affected his behaviour and his happiness in school.

We had a similar situation at DDs primary school. The effects on the other children in the class cannot be underestimated. Having to witness fowl language, kids hitting teachers and causing chaos caused made my DD quite stressed and anxious about going to school. Not only that but as DD was sensible she had to sit next to a boy that kicked off at the drop of a hat. In the end two teachers left for 'personal reasons' but even the kids didn't buy that story. I'm not sure what the answer is but schools need to do more to consider the effect this has on the others in the class.

The school definately have a plan for them which adapts, teachers also have to record and note down all incidents which if ss are involved, they also hear about.

You will find children like these poor children in most schools, children with unfortunate backgrounds who the school may struggle to accomodate.

Unless you want to pay for a private school?

SparticusX great post....what exactly is " there are different rules for you because you have problems" teaching them.

How will that work further on in life

Maybe you could start by sympathising with the teacher and ask if you could help in any way?

No, don't!

First off, I only mentioned being a parent helper because it means I see much of this behaviour first hand, I"m not relying on stories from my 10 yr old or stories getting gossiped about in the playground. I never share anything I see with other parents, and I have changed enough details that I am certain there is nothing identifying in my post. Unless we are the only class in the country with 2 badly behaved kids (who may or may not be boys, may or may not go swimming, may or may not have used the actual word fat, it's a mystery.....).

Also, I am only bothered because it is bothering my child. If it wasn't bothering him I wouldn't give it another thought. His class has gone in the space of a few months from a calm, happy place to a stressful place with shouting, openly defiant behaviour, and what the kids perceive as reward for that behaviour.

Thanks to those of you who have explained to me what is hopefully going on behind the scenes to support these kids. It appears from the outside that absolutely nothing is happening apart from teachers trying to appease them to keep the peace and the effects on the other kids are largely ignored. I'm sure it is because of lack of resources rather than lack of interest from the teachers, but that doesn't alter the end result really.

I would like to ask the staff if they could stop the reward for homework thing. It's just so clearly different rules for different people, and this seems to be the thing that annoys the other kids the most, or make everyone do a token amount of homework before getting the reward.

The Youtube watching is a tough one, I can totally see that a kid sitting quietly on the iPad is way better than a kid being disruptive, but it's just so obviously perceived as a reward for bad behaviour for the other kids and it's causing resentment.

The other thing I"m never sure how to judge is what to say to my own kid when he says to me "why do I have to do all this homework and xyz doesn't?" "Well, life's not fair, suck it up" is not enough of an explanation I don't think, not for such a huge and obvious difference in treatment. I'm never sure if it's ok to say "well his/her parents are not able to help him with homework and it would be a shame if he always lost out because of his parents". I don't know if it's right to suggest anything negative to my child about someone else's family.

It's so hard.

I agree with the homework - all children who complete it should be rewarded and those who don't are not. You could ask the teacher but you may find senior management have set up the rewards for these children and they do tend to be dealt with at a higher level. Speak to the teacher but you may find you'll have to escalate this higher. I have challenging children with separate rewards, this has been set by the headteacher but managed by me in class. It is not linked to any other child in the class and are personal targets. Other children don't seem to mind as I also have extra targets for all children in the class so all children have the opportunity to 'earn' extra playtime, golden time etc which I feel is fair. Positive rewards can work and it really is all we have to try to manage behaviour but your child's teacher does need to ensure they are being consistent and fair to all children.

100% with SpartacusX. These kids are being set up for a life of failure. The school should not be rewarding this behaviour. They should be stamping on it.

Thing is though, Spartacus is writing from a place of empathising with the neglected badly behaved child and thinking about their needs.

Most parents are not.

there's a big difference.

I've always taken the pragmatic stance that if I go and help struggling families then it will be easier for the teacher to get on with teaching my kids.

Yabu, unless you happen to know their entire history and needs. Perhaps they've suffered trauma. You parent your kids, and stop judging school and these kids. School will know far more than you.