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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

317 replies

teaandakitkat · 27/03/2017 13:42

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

OP posts:
WateryTart · 29/03/2017 12:18

Medical training isn't necessary to diagnose many special needs. In our EA it's done by educational psychologists not doctors.

TheRealPooTroll · 29/03/2017 12:21

Ed psychs can diagnose things like dyslexia. Teachers don't or shouldn't be diagnosing anything.

WateryTart · 29/03/2017 13:01

Ed Psychs can and do diagnose a lot more than that. Teachers have some training in SENs and often years of experience. How else would they know when to refer children?

I "diagnosed" dyslexia many times and had it confirmed. I've also "diagnosed" autism and had it confirmed.

AmeliaLion · 29/03/2017 13:09

pootroll, I'm not talking just about children with SEN. I'm talking about all children and teenagers who display behaviour which affects their learning outcomes and learning outcomes of other children, particularly where the current support within mainstream school isn't working.

Teachers certainly shouldn't be diagnosing anything, but should be supporting parents in getting a diagnosis where appropriate and supporting the child by following advice from professionals and parents in managing a learning need. I have no patience with teachers who don't do these things.

Of the difficult children I teach none of them have a recognised SEN. I think (from interactions with these children) that some others might benefit from additional support, but the support isn't there.

I do teach a couple of children who have full time 1 to 1 support due to SEN, but these children are rarely disruptive - no more so than the average child. So in their case the support is working.

kesstrel · 29/03/2017 13:32

Maybe I should go in and complain about those pesky nt kids that mess around and take the teachers time away from my precious child?

What 'pesky NT kids'? The criteria for identifying SEBD (social, emotional and behavioural difficulties) SEN is so broad that any child with persistent misbehaviour can be considered to fall within it. In schools where that view is taken, all 'pesky' NT kids will be considered to have SEN.

TheRealPooTroll · 29/03/2017 14:17

Yes watery. You had it confirmed by someone appropriately qualified to diagnose it. Teachers can report suspicions and behaviour they've seen as can parents, nursery nurses, children's centre staff etc. They can't diagnose medical conditions.
Anyway - I'm out. As it seems you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
AmeliaLion good luck with your future career. It's a shame the good ones are leaving.

randomer · 29/03/2017 14:55

oh by the way anybody reading anything you don't agree with feel free to get said poster banned.

kesstrel · 29/03/2017 14:58

They can't diagnose medical conditions.

SEBD type SEN isn't really a 'medical condition'. But regardless, I've read lots of teacher blogs for some years now, and also social media comments, and SENCOs 'diagnosing' unstatemented SEN seems to be quite common.

TrueBlueYorkshire · 29/03/2017 15:44

In private school half of what you pay is for is to make sure the classroom doesn't have socially maladjusted misfits. The other half is to make sure you get and support the best teachers.

childmaintenanceserviceinquiry · 29/03/2017 16:04

I'm not going to comment on much of the thread, but what I would ask OP is that if you are so concerned about these children's behaviour and how the school are dealing with it, that instead of spending time on here basically whinging that you go out and campaign for real change. There are substantial financial cuts to schools, there is little to no proper provision for children with Sen, social services are stretched to breaking and beyond so there is little real support to help families with parenting etc etc.

So many parents with children who cope in the education system have no understanding or empathy for children and their families who don't cope.

RebelRogue · 29/03/2017 16:17

Perhaps if Primary schools had a better mix of staff things would improve.

What do you mean?

AmeliaLion · 29/03/2017 16:17

"socially maladjusted misfits" is a horrible way to describe a child. And it isn't the case (necessarily) that difficult children don't go to private school. 2 years ago one of my difficult students was moved to a private school up the road. There, he has found the support he needed and is doing really well. It is one of the reasons I applied for a job there - I was unable to help this child in my current setting, but love that the staff in the private school were able to.

Spikeyball · 29/03/2017 16:29

It's a shame you have to pay Trueblue. My child with sen gets his private school place for free.

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 16:51

The other half is to make sure you get and support the best teachers.

It amuses me the number of people who honestly believe that teachers are better in a private school than state. Is it an attempt to justify the obscene amounts of money they are spending on their children's education?

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 16:55

It's sad that some people need it explaining to them that saying children with Sen are incapable of behaving like human beings is disablist.

Well, it would be if that was what the poster concerned actually wrote, but it's actually not what she said. You misinterpreted it. I presume MN deleted it so it could not be similarly misinterpreted by others.

DanyellasDonkey · 29/03/2017 16:56

Randomer what mix of staff would improve the situation?

Spikeyball · 29/03/2017 17:09

The deletion message said the post was disablist.

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 17:15

Well, I reckon that was because they mis-read it too, or that they knew others would be piling in to object on the same grounds as PooTroll. Safer to just remove it to avoid any more ambiguity.

TheRealPooTroll · 29/03/2017 17:57

Gosh I didn't want to post on here anymore but really octopus it is pathetic to suggest that the moderators aren't doing their jobs properly because you can't accept you are wrong.
It is very rare on here for disablism to be given as a reason for a post being deleted. It is not something that HQ do lightly or without reading posts carefully.
And for the record I don't think the poster was banned. The post was removed. Because it was vile.

TheRealPooTroll · 29/03/2017 18:04

And now you're 'amused' that some people believe that schools that pay better salaries attract the best staff. Someone just wants to argue I think. I'm out.

randomer · 29/03/2017 18:08

heyup! Poo you have returned.

a good mix would be an even number of males/females/trans/non binary

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 18:13

I think you're reading a different thread from the one that's here. 'amused' that some people believe that schools that pay better salaries attract the best staff Except nothing was said about better salaries.

you can't accept you are wrong. Well, as you copied and pasted the post and it is still there, the evidence is there that I'm not wrong. You did misinterpret it, by neglecting to note the inverted commas around the SEN reference, which totally changed the meaning. Simple comprehension skills.

And didn't you say you were leaving the thread before?

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 18:16

Salaries are not necessarily better in private schools. And it is not a requirement for teachers to be qualified in private schools either. Unfortunately, state schools are beginning to head the same way, but not for want of opposition from properly qualified staff.

randomer · 29/03/2017 18:17

Poo never gives up

thatdearoctopus · 29/03/2017 18:24

a good mix would be an even number of males/females/trans/non binary

I presume that's a joke? Recruitment is well-nigh impossible already, let alone bringing in quotas.