to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

YANBU
Report every single time, in writing. Encourage other parents to do so.
Explain how it is causing issues for your DC.
If noone reports then they will never get help to handle the behaviour.

Tricky. Maybe you could start by sympathising with the teacher and ask if you could help in any way?

Please, don't do this.

YANBU as a parent YABU as well though. It's hard to be empathetic and understanding when YOU don't know what's going on(not that you should be told) and when your child is upset. But there will definitely be a plan in place. Also the teacher is limited in what they can do. SLT and SENCO come up with most of it,but it's the teacher that has to enforce it and deal with it whether she agrees with it or not. Some school won't exclude unless very serious (hurting stuff and others and breaking things is not serious enough). Some schools will have limits and restrictions on "punishments" that the class teacher can give. It can be awfully hard...for both staff and children.

But on the other hand imagine little kids that have never had a bed time story,or a cuddle or praise. Or any kind of love. Kids that arrive to school hungry and leave hungry. Kids that cry before the holidays because they don't want to go home. Kids from whom school is actually the only safe place where rightly or wrongly can let lose. Kids that are being told they are stupid and useless . And many many more... for the whole of their little lives. Most of these kids take punishments as a confirmation of how undeserving and bad/stupid/useless they are. They have very little incentive to try to begin with,and most hide behind the shitty attitude and I don't give a fuck because they can't afford (mentally) to give a fuck.

That's why I posted looking for advice on what I can say to the teacher.

Advice on how to handle these boys. And you think you'd be more qualified than the school staff?

When I was at secondary school I was lucky enough to go to a really good comp. However, one of my classes had a couple of really poorly behaved kids in it (compared to my other classes) and a teacher who found it hard to manage them. We could get no work done because the teacher spent her whole time managing the kids. In the end, I basically had to self-teach that GCSE (unlike my other classes). I was lucky that my mum could help me with it, and I got a decent grade. The grades that class got were lower across the whole class (by on average 2 grades) than in the other classes. I feel sorry for the kids who have a tough home life, something that probably most of us can't really imagine or understand, but there has to be some recognition of the life long impact it can actually have on all of the other kids. Following my experiences, I would struggle to stand by and watch while extremely naughty children ruin all of the other kids' education.

If you want to get "the other side of the story", try reading some of Sarah Naish's books, the children's ones and adult ones.

There could well be good reason for the "double standards".

Maybe this might help to explain to your son,more than "life is not fair,tough shit"

Yabu, unless you happen to know their entire history and needs. Perhaps they've suffered trauma. You parent your kids, and stop judging school and these kids. School will know far more than you.

I don't understand this at all.

I'm not interested in their entire history and needs. I"m not interested in judging these kids. I'm not really interested in them at all, apart from feeling sad that any child is in a shit situation.

I am parenting my kids by recognising that something happening within their classroom is affecting them. That thing might be poor teaching, absent teachers, poor facilities, anything. In this particular case it is clearly linked to two particular children, both their behaviour and the way the teachers are seen to deal with their behaviour.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to want to find a way to improve the situation for my children.

I feel sorry for the teacher. In what other job would someone call you a fat shit and if would be your fault?

This is why so many of us are leaving. There will only be NQTs left soon, and more and more of them don't bother.

IMO school's primary mission is to teach not to educate.
We all have different circumstances, allowing a child to insult or hit is not going to help them in the long run anyway. Working with them to define goals and giving them rewards when achieved is a good thing. Allowing them to misbehave and double standard is not right.

Advice on how to handle these boys. And you think you'd be more qualified than the school staff?

No, advice on how to have a conversation with the teacher. I know they have already had at least 6 parents in there complaining that xyz are disrupting the class with their behaviour, their hearts must sink every single time a parent asks for a meeting.

I have had good advice that I should focus entirely on how my child is feeling and the particular issues that he is having right now. That is good advice and I will definitely use it.

And RebelRogue I like that picture. I'm going to keep it for when a difficult conversation comes up.

The teachers will deal with the behaviour as those children need. They don't need to be "seen" to be doing anything.

You need to teach your kids that some children find school more difficult than others, and for some children, sitting still is as hard as trigonometry is for others.

If you feel the school are failing your kids, go and talk about your kids. Butt out of blaming other kids.

And be glad that the stats say your kids are probably the long term winners in this, through no innate worth of their own, or lack of it in these other kids.

Myob. And if you want to understand, read Sarah Naish.

Rewards mean nothing to a child who feels worthless, shame, and like they don't deserve anything.

Children need boundaries. The school is not helping them at all.

Im giving you the 'other side of the story' and Im telling you this faux tolerant middle class "pity the poor children" attitude is not welcome or respected by those kids. We all know what you mean by it, that you are happy to look the other way and wait for these kids to move on and be someone else's problem. God forbid you should care enough to expect the same effort and ambition from these kids as you do your own!

I hated people who came out with this crap when I was a kid. Hated. I dont feel much better about it now either. You expect nothing from these kids because you think nothing of them. They know that and they hate you for it.

No, advice on how to have a conversation with the teacher.

My advice from seeing both sides is focus on your child. How he feels (overlooked, disenhearted etc), what he struggles with (focusing in class,on work,noisy environment maybe). Do not mention the other kids at all. The teacher will obviously know,but it does make a difference when you come from a please help my child stance,rather than a "sort these kids out" one.

Spartacus is that to me?

I'm a therapeutic parent, and empathy is core to that. Not pity, empathy.

And its fucking hard work. It's by no means "faux middle class tolerance".

As a parent I completely understand your concern. If my dd was in a class with children like this then I would move her to a new school. No child should have to put up with constant disruptions to their education or violence towards them on a daily basis. It's not acceptable.

However, as a teacher I can also understand what's going on in this school. It's so very difficult to get children like this to conform and behave appropriately and it makes the teaching staff and other children miserable. It isn't fair to allow these children to have Golden Time when they've been dreadful all week yet take it away from the other children for the tiniest infringement of the rules but again I can see why they may do this. I do punish all the children in my class as fairly as I can when the time arises, but for some children they would never have anything to work towards if I took away their Golden Time each week for the same things that I would punish the better behaved children for. If the Golden Time is lost on Monday morning then what incentive is there to behave for the rest of the week. If the child never gets Golden Time then again where is the incentive to conform. The better behaved children are likely to get their Golden Time every week and only miss it a few times a year because they understand the rules and they have boundaries at home and in school which will be similar, as well as potentially supportive parents. In addition, many headteachers aren't as supportive of their teachers as you would think or like. If the children are violent and aggressive then I can also understand the reluctance to confront these children. I've seen teachers assaulted by children under the age of 12 time and time again and it's frightening. Many Year 5 & 6s tower over teaching staff and when they brandish weapons like pencils, scissors, chairs etc its terrifying and headteachers don't always respond in the teacher and children's best interest because they're reluctant to exclude the child involved. I don't know what you can do other than speak about your concerns to the school and/or move your child to a different school (but run the risk of similar kids there). You have my sympathies.

And, Spartacus, I expect great things from my kids. But regular behaviour management isn't going to get us there.

By way of comparison, one of my DCs has for some years been in the same class as a disruptive child. While the school has said nothing about his chaotic home life, the child's teachers have certainly let it be known that there is a reason for the behaviour and that extra understanding is required. The child's classmates appear to understand this, and so do the parents. I've heard this child let rip with some pretty awful language, but my DC says doing it in class does result in sanctions.

So, there is buy-in from the other children and their parents, the school's discipline is not seen to be undermined, and the child is helped.

To me, this seems more appropriate that that taken by the OP's school and some teachers on this thread. However, this is not in the UK, so I daresay the applicable laws and guidance that the teachers follow isn't so constrained.

^If my dd was in a class with children like this then I would move her to a new school. No child should have to put up with constant disruptions to their education or violence towards them on a daily basis. It's not acceptable.

However, as a teacher..^

So no child should have to put up with this, but in reality the best you can advocate is that individual children should be moved (rescued?) from it by moving schools? Leaving all the rest still 'putting up with it'??

Therapeutic parenting is all well and good in a one on one environment or the small structure of parenting. School is not these environments and teachers and especially other children should not have to act as 'therapeutic parents' too!

Therapeutic parenting a traumatised child one on one until they are ready for a group environment like a school is not a bad suggestion. Ignoring some kids ultra shitty behaviour and its devastating impact on themselves and everyone else around them is not therapeutic parenting. It is avoidance and neglect.

The teachers will deal with the behaviour as those children need. They don't need to be "seen" to be doing anything.

I think the presumption here is that the school actually does have a plan. It's quite normal for the experts to hide behind the general presumption that there will be one, and I imagine this would be particularly tempting when the general approach is absolute privacy, absolute secrecy, and for something like this to be absolutely no one else's business whatsoever.

I don't get it Spartacus, you're offended that people could be putting these kids in the reject bin, yet you're unsupportive of methods proven to help them achieve. I think you're just arguing for the sake of it, and will ignore you.

Nobody is denying your kids an education. If your kids are abusive in school, then it is them denying other children safe access to education, and adults safe access to their place of employment.