to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

There is obviously going to be variations in personality but if a 9 yr old child requires a classroom to themselves and is regularly attacking their helper drawing blood as user described there is obviously something going on in terms of neglect, neurological disability (whether diagnosed or not) or mental health. Or a combination of things. Poor parenting doesn't necessarily mean a child doesn't also have a hidden disability. All disabled children don't have angel parents. Some will be great some will be awful and the majority will be somewhere in between like any parents. And while a lack of discipline can be the cause of problems a lack of conventional discipline methods could also be due to parents finding that conventional discipline methods don't work with their children.
If you look at the research kids with challenging behaviour, for whatever reason, respond better to a supportive compassionate approach which benefits everyone. Unfortunately supportive and compassionate costs money whereas carrot or stick methods are very cheap (but generally useless in the long term).

I don't know whether it is lack of money, support staff or a general unwillingness to accept that a mainstream classroom environment isn't suitable for all children. But it isn't helping the child, their peers or their parents.

It's all about funding imo. We have a huge number of support staff. Each class in my school has a TA and often extras are brought in to help with behaviour management within the class . Many children have INAs, there are 2 members of staff dedicated to behaviour support, as well as all SLT.

Last year 4 pupils were pulled out of classes for an entire year and followed their own special syllabus with a staff ratio of 2:1.
They have been reintegrated now but are still causing huge problems in the classroom.

Today I had to try and coax a child out of a tree. He went up there because he wanted to and wouldn't come down.Yesterday I had to break up a vicious fight between 2 year 4 boys. I had to stand and listen to a raging child whist he told me to 'fuck off and leave me alone". Since I have teens that is like water off a ducks back to me. Round my school you hearing screaming and shouting in the corridors all the time, kids running off, adults chasing them. Everyday I will be asked " have you seen so and so?". It is not because my school has inadequate care. We have excellent training and involvement with esbas. There is an on site play therapist, and nurture groups run every afternoon. There are small group counselling/social skills/ therapy sessions pretty much everyday. We have a huge lunch time club where children can go if they find playground areas challenging. Staff provide games to play outside too. There is a huge field with a wooded area for them to play on. It goes on and on.
Some of the children come from difficult backgrounds, some have diagnosed SEN, some are enabled by parents who support bad behaviour and won't support the school.

And that is what happens when you close specialist schools and shoehorn children with 'moderate' needs into mainstream on the cheap.
I do think that some people are just not cut out to work with kids with special needs as well. All the training in the world isn't going to have any impact on staff who 'don't believe' in certain hidden disabilities and have very fixed ideas about how to make children behave that they are unwilling to deviate from.

This is what you get when You shoehorn kids with moderate needs into mainstream schools on the cheap.
Well said. A child who has been excluded from primary school clearly needs and deserves some kind of intervention which is beyond the training of your average teacher in a mainstream school. Apart from making everyone's life stressful in his/her new school, this child will not be learning to his/her full potential and will likely be excluded from school further down the line. Basically everyone suffers because the government is trying to cut corners.

I would be moving my children straight out of a school like that!

Of course there are cuts to other vital services for struggling families- sure start and the like. We get the kids and the families that struggle. They have no help.

School then has to try and wear as many hats as possible with next to no official training and supporting the families and children on more of a social work basis and helping with parenting advice.

There is no official specialist training for us to help bridge the gap because there is no money. We have to learn on the job and do the best we can.

The funding crisis in education means we have to watch every penny even for the basics like pencils, paper rubbers and books.

Then Ofsted will find we haven't met the increasingly ridiculous targets being set. This will mainly be due to behavioural issues hindering progress and lack of funding will mark us failing and we will become academies.

The children who should not be in mainstream but in a specialist setting will feel like shitty failures because they cannot access the limited and boring curriculum. They will feel utterly overwhelmed by the relentless drive to achieve more and more even though they can't. They will act up even more and so the cycle continues.

What the hell do we actually spend our money on? I mean, it's clearly not schools, the NHS, mental health services or social services so what is happening?

Have we just insisted on ever higher standards whilst not providing funding to make it happen or has there been a withdrawal of money and if so where has it gone? Surely if they closed specialist schools when they decided mainstreaming was the right thing to do, then that money should have been reallocated back into the wider education system?

There is no real term funding. The cost of things goes up. The cost PP is much higher than the amount given.

Oneflew I'm constantly asking myself that. We hand over a lot of hard earned cash in taxes yet see less and less come back in the form of the basic services we expect from the government.

And secondly the implication that children with sen are not only not normal or human but are also incapable of even imitating those characteristics.

where is this alluded to please?

That post rightly got deleted for being disablist.

For a start a child has sen if they need additional provision for whatever reason

SEN Special Educational Needs.....A child or young person has special educational needs (SEN) if he or she has learning difficulties or disabilities that make it harder for him or her to learn than most other children and young people of about the same age.

learning difficulites or disabilities....so is calling a teacher a fat shit the result of a learning difficulty or a disability?

Randomer sometimes yes. I've been told by a pupil " I'll punch you in your fucking fat face". Nearly had a meltdown and i was fuming. And then I found out about all the extra needs they have,the self harm,the plummeting low self esteem they have. Their anger is a coping mechanism. I'm not fuming anymore.

respect to you RR , not really what you trained as teacher for is it?

You can find government spending over decades here in the section on long-run trends in areas of spending:

www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/fiscal_facts/public_spending_survey

It seems real-terms education spending has been going down since 2011.

Why we seems to be getting less for our money is a complicated question. Personally, I think we have (on the whole) higher expectations. Education isn't just about teaching - so much is admin it is unbelievable. For example, we report to parents 4 times per year. Over a year this amounts to about 50 hours of my time not including proper end of year reports. In an average week I spend 2 hours(ish) responding directly to emails or calls from parents.

Within secondary schools the massive and short-notice shake up of both GCSE and A level curriculum has meant even very experienced teachers have had to spend significant time preparing new resources and adapting the way we teach.

I'm not complaining about having to do it, I think that keeping parents informed is a good use of my time (on the whole), and there are aspects of the new curriculum that are a real improvement. But when workload is increased and staff numbers are not that means something else has to go.

I'm a TA but thank you.

I deliver behaviour management training and just want to add that:-

Behaviour does not happen for no reason. There is always a reason behind it- if you don't know what it is it means you have yet to find it.

I completely agree with you op we have the same in our school, Last week a boy had got the golden award in his class for good behaviour, The day before the golden award he had hurt my son in the playground and had a letter home for it and spat at someone... What sort of message does this send to the kid, and other kids, Play up as much as you can and you will get rewarded?
I always tell my son when he comes home bothered about how many treats the naughty kids get and awards I tell him that he has grown up taught how to be respectful and behave and so his real reward will come when he is older and he is able to hold down a good job and have good relationships with people because he has been brought up well.
For the record the child I was referring to has no special needs he's just a naughty kid before any starts, with the oh but he my have special needs, Nope some kids are just naughty because some people are crap parents and don't take their job of bringing up children seriously and don't care about the sort of person their kid turns out to be..

Nope some kids are just naughty because some people are crap parents and don't take their job of bringing up children seriously and don't care about the sort of person their kid turns out to be..

But see some kids aren't just naughty? They lack parenting,discipline and boundaries. Their needs are neglected. And that is WHY they behave the way they do. They aren't just..naughty.

Err that's what I said, Doesn't mean I think that the school should keep giving the treats and awards?? It means they should be disciplined properly for their behaviour.

Its not doing the child any favours rewarding them for bad behaviour, That doesn't happen when you are an adult..

I used to be a teacher so I can answer this from an experienced POV.

One school I worked in, the worst kid in the class was socially disadvantaged in various ways (not that most of my other kids weren't but his home life was notably worse). And the first time I tried to discipline him by denying him the chance to do something he loved - go swimming - his mum rushed in to complain and I was carpeted by the Head. She told me in no uncertain terms, I was never to discipline that kid. (Mind you, she was so crap we sent naughty kids to eachother, not her, as she'd just give them sweeties and make them her special helped for the day, so she was a whackjob).

I found out that the mother had threatened to go to the Head's house and stove her windows in if the child was punished in any way.

Heads are cowards, on the whole.

You never know, but it could be the Head here has threatened teachers because they are frightened of the parent. I've seen that happen, in one form or another, at many schools.

My own son's school, a bloke who was in and out of prison for various violent crimes, was allowed to dictate to the temporary acting Head, how to deal with kids who upset his son. When it came out that the perpetrator was not the two boys who'd been excluded - but this thug's son - nothing happened. Kid got off scot free. Presumably because the Head was in thrall to the violent parent. Happens all the time. But yes, I was told in no uncertain terms not to discipline the worst kid in my class.

rossigigi, I completely agree. What I dispute is the idea that is the responsibility of the classroom teacher to find the root cause. Sometimes (perhaps often) it is left to individual teachers to try to find a way to work around it rather than any of the following:
-slt
-mental health services
-social services

So (in secondary) we have 10 different teachers trying to find a solution that works as opposed to one individual. This year I reckon I've spent about 20 hours outside of normal teaching trying to find a solution for Edward. If even half of his teachers are doing similar that is 100 hours which have so far had no effect. Surely those 100 hours spent by (for example) a counsellor would have been more likely to produce a result.

As it is, the responsibility is pushed on to the teacher because asking teachers to just do more doesn't cost any money.

Must be v frustrating for you OP. Not sure what can be done to improve the situation apart from removing the disruptive children from the class and teaching them separately - in a parallel universe where the money existed to pay for an extra teacher....

This happened in our school. Teachers being sworn at, when HT asked pupils to stop their challenging behaviour, they said, "Make me" etc etc.

This went on and on until everyone was totally fed up of it. Nothing was done until a parent wrote to the EA saying that her child was being assaulted on a daily basis and if the school didn't do anything about it, she was going to the police and the press. Amazingly, exclusions followed.